Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled?

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> writes:

>Saab C900 Viggenist wrote:

>> Last night I met up with the person who has the very first 2008-built MY08
>> Saab 9-3 BioPower car sold in Australia. That car has the capability to run
>> on ethanol blend fuels up to 85 percent ethanol (aka E85), however I was
>> very amazed when he was telling about how E85 can't be purchased from the
>> small number of outlets that stock it around Australia without 'registering'
>> on a federal government database, and service stations that do have it will
>> deliberately lie when you ask them about it if your vehicle is not
>> registered in this database!

>Perhaps you can provide some evidence of this ?

Of the 'database'? The owner of the bio-power 9-3 had a phone call directly
from someone who's a techincal expert from Brazil brought to Australia by
Manildra to help set up the process of producing E85 fuel.

He arranged with the person who owns the car in question to register them on
the database and now he can legally buy E85 from any Australian outlet that
stocks it. The guy from Brazil is living somewhere close to where the owner
of the bio-power 9-3 lives on the northern beaches area. Seeing as it's the
very first 08-buily my08 bio-power 9-3 to be sold in Australia, it's
currently a unique vehicle!

I didn't know E85 was even available in Australia yet, but clearly it is.
Why it's not legal to buy without 'approval' is still a mystery. I believe
it's due to the excise issue. I bet once more manufacturers start making
cars that run on high-proportional ethanol fuels things will change (and the
price of ethanol fuel blends will rise).

Craig.
--
Craig's Saab C900 Page at | Craig's Classic Saab Workshop - Sydney .au
http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | http://www.classicsaab.net and other URL's
Email: c900.DeleteThis@lios.apana.org.au | For Saab 99/C900/9000 Enthusiasts World-Wide!
Alternate: saabonaut.DeleteThis@gmail.com | Web-forums, galleries, library, links, etc.
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

John_H <john4721.RemoveThis@inbox.com> writes:

>Saab C900 Viggenist wrote:
>>
>>The price of E85 at the outlet he buys from in Forrestville (Sydney) is
>>A$1.05 per litre at present (I guess it does vary a little over time). The
>>only reason I could think of for why it's being so tightly regulated is that
>>there are exclusive agreements in place with Manildra Corp for supply of the
>>ethanol going into the fuel mixture, and that the government has basically
>>removed it's excise (which accounts for a large degree of the much lower
>>price) as a 'sweetener' to big business and government departments to
>>kick-start the interest in high-concentration ethanol blend fuels in Oz.
>>
>>Does anyone know any more about this?

><cross post deleted>

>There is no exclusive arrangement with Manildra (and never was).

Still seems bizarre. I wasn't sure but on the face of it the whole situation
does look like it's 'rigged' to suit certain outcomes.

>Currently ethanol blended fuels attract the same excise as petrol
>(38.143¢ a litre). Local ethanol producers, of which there are
>several, are paid a subsidy of 38.143¢ a litre (which effectively
>offsets the fuel excise component). There have also been substantial
>GovCo grants towards the cost of setting up ethanol manufacturing
>facilities.

I know about the grants for the manufacturing facilities, I didn't know
there was an 'offset' payment going to the ethanol producers though. I
wonder what 'creative' way the government is using to recover that money
back from taxpayers? I also wonder if other parts of the world (esp. the
USA) are getting as wound-up about ethanol fuels as is happening here?

What would be really interesting is the gauge the effect in Europe, because
in Europe diesel vehicles are a lot more common and there would be a lot less
rural land with a climate suitable for growing crops to produce ethanol for
vehicle fuel production. Here in Australia and in the US there is loads of
space (currently) to commercially farm crops for ethanol production, though
what will happen when ethanol fuels really do become more mainstream is
what'll be interesting to watch also.

>The downside for the consumer (apart from the cost of the grants and
>subsidy) is the energy content of ethanol, which is around 40% lower
>then petrol... 27MJ/kg vs 43MJ/kg (note that these figures are based
>on mass, not volume). All other things being equal (octane ratings,
>etc) fuel consumption is directly proportional to energy content.

>Hence E85 has around 30% lower energy content than petrol and you'd
>therefore expect to use 30% more under the same operating conditions.
>To provide the same value it needs to be 30% cheaper than petrol.
>(Apart from what GovCo hands out from our taxes.)

I was aware the chemical nature of ethanol meant that there would be poorer
fuel economy measured purely on a litre per 100 km basis compared to
conventional hydrocarbon fuels.

I suppose the vehicle manufacturers will try to develop ways to improve the
energy 'extraction' from engines designed specifically to run on fuels like
E85 so that any price offsets are offset further by fuel economy savings.
Not sure if Saab itself has been doing much in this regard since GM tends to
put the lid on anything controversial (as do Ford - witness the 'before
their time' electric vehicles that each company tries to deny ever existed)
that will upset other industries that GM depends on for the indirect revenue
sources into the automotive manufacturing industry as a whole.

>The same comparison (based on energy content) also applies to E10,
>which almost never provides the same value as petrol.

Yep noticed this first-hand, and I think people are being duped because the
pricing of E10 is a little cheaper than the same octane-rated conventional
petrol so they believe they're getting better value.

Craig.
--
Craig's Saab C900 Page at | Craig's Classic Saab Workshop - Sydney .au
http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | http://www.classicsaab.net and other URL's
Email: c900.RemoveThis@lios.apana.org.au | For Saab 99/C900/9000 Enthusiasts World-Wide!
Alternate: saabonaut.RemoveThis@gmail.com | Web-forums, galleries, library, links, etc.
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:38 +0000 (UTC) Saab C900 Viggenist
<c900.RemoveThis@lios.apana.org.au> wrote:

> Does anyone know any more about this?

Maybe something to do with containing rising food costs?

http://tinyurl.com/27lmsb

Then again maybe a huge government conspiracy to stamp bar codes on our
foreheads and control us all from laptops running Windows 3.1?

(This one for the conspiracy freaks out there (like the original
poster)).
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

Polly the Parrot <flatulantdingo.DeleteThis@deadspam.com> writes:

>On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:38 +0000 (UTC) Saab C900 Viggenist
><c900.DeleteThis@lios.apana.org.au> wrote:

>> Does anyone know any more about this?

>Maybe something to do with containing rising food costs?

>http://tinyurl.com/27lmsb

>Then again maybe a huge government conspiracy to stamp bar codes on our
>foreheads and control us all from laptops running Windows 3.1?

>(This one for the conspiracy freaks out there (like the original
>poster)).

I think most people would view the situation with fluctuating fuel pricing
in Australia to be a conspiracy, so the OP isn't alone in these concerns.

--
Sheik Yerbhouti - the popular ambassador to Australia of the Arab Royal States
Anonymous I welcome you loving emails. Come and view my free image galleries at:
http://www.southwestslutbags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2941
http://www.technotranceravesex.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=20555
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

"Sheik Yerbhouti" <sy.DeleteThis@lios.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:fv0bvn$3n0$4@yoda.apana.org.au...
> Polly the Parrot <flatulantdingo.DeleteThis@deadspam.com> writes:
>
>>On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:30:38 +0000 (UTC) Saab C900 Viggenist
>><c900.DeleteThis@lios.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
>>> Does anyone know any more about this?
>
>>Maybe something to do with containing rising food costs?
>
>>http://tinyurl.com/27lmsb
>
>>Then again maybe a huge government conspiracy to stamp bar codes on our
>>foreheads and control us all from laptops running Windows 3.1?
>
>>(This one for the conspiracy freaks out there (like the original
>>poster)).
>
> I think most people would view the situation with fluctuating fuel pricing
> in Australia to be a conspiracy, so the OP isn't alone in these concerns.

Dunno, but I fully support the large scale roll out of E85 across petrol
stations in Australia.

Ethanol actually has lower energy per litre then does petrol, however it's
massive octane rating 104 for E85 means that it works great guns in
turbocharged and supercharged motors and you can get significantly more
power then you ever could with petrol.
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

"Saab C900 Viggenist" <c900.RemoveThis@lios.apana.org.au> wrote in message
news:fv11bf$apc$1@yoda.apana.org.au...
> John_H <john4721.RemoveThis@inbox.com> writes:
>
>>Saab C900 Viggenist wrote:
>>>
>>>The price of E85 at the outlet he buys from in Forrestville (Sydney) is
>>>A$1.05 per litre at present (I guess it does vary a little over time).
>>>The
>>>only reason I could think of for why it's being so tightly regulated is
>>>that
>>>there are exclusive agreements in place with Manildra Corp for supply of
>>>the
>>>ethanol going into the fuel mixture, and that the government has
>>>basically
>>>removed it's excise (which accounts for a large degree of the much lower
>>>price) as a 'sweetener' to big business and government departments to
>>>kick-start the interest in high-concentration ethanol blend fuels in Oz.
>>>
>>>Does anyone know any more about this?
>
>><cross post deleted>
>
>>There is no exclusive arrangement with Manildra (and never was).
>
> Still seems bizarre. I wasn't sure but on the face of it the whole
> situation
> does look like it's 'rigged' to suit certain outcomes.
>
>>Currently ethanol blended fuels attract the same excise as petrol
>>(38.143¢ a litre). Local ethanol producers, of which there are
>>several, are paid a subsidy of 38.143¢ a litre (which effectively
>>offsets the fuel excise component). There have also been substantial
>>GovCo grants towards the cost of setting up ethanol manufacturing
>>facilities.
>
> I know about the grants for the manufacturing facilities, I didn't know
> there was an 'offset' payment going to the ethanol producers though. I
> wonder what 'creative' way the government is using to recover that money
> back from taxpayers? I also wonder if other parts of the world (esp. the
> USA) are getting as wound-up about ethanol fuels as is happening here?
>
> What would be really interesting is the gauge the effect in Europe,
> because
> in Europe diesel vehicles are a lot more common and there would be a lot
> less
> rural land with a climate suitable for growing crops to produce ethanol
> for
> vehicle fuel production. Here in Australia and in the US there is loads of
> space (currently) to commercially farm crops for ethanol production,


so what vacant areas are there in Australia that can be used for ethanol
production (remembering that our ethanol is sourced as a waste by-product
and not as a dedicated crop like the proponents in the US are advocating)
Just because we have a lot of land not used for cropping does not mean it is
viable for cropping, quite a lot of our land is far too poor to use for
anything other than saltbush and scrubby vegetation.

--
"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
Don Hirschberg

though
> what will happen when ethanol fuels really do become more mainstream is
> what'll be interesting to watch also.
>
>>The downside for the consumer (apart from the cost of the grants and
>>subsidy) is the energy content of ethanol, which is around 40% lower
>>then petrol... 27MJ/kg vs 43MJ/kg (note that these figures are based
>>on mass, not volume). All other things being equal (octane ratings,
>>etc) fuel consumption is directly proportional to energy content.
>
>>Hence E85 has around 30% lower energy content than petrol and you'd
>>therefore expect to use 30% more under the same operating conditions.
>>To provide the same value it needs to be 30% cheaper than petrol.
>>(Apart from what GovCo hands out from our taxes.)
>
> I was aware the chemical nature of ethanol meant that there would be
> poorer
> fuel economy measured purely on a litre per 100 km basis compared to
> conventional hydrocarbon fuels.
>
> I suppose the vehicle manufacturers will try to develop ways to improve
> the
> energy 'extraction' from engines designed specifically to run on fuels
> like
> E85 so that any price offsets are offset further by fuel economy savings.
> Not sure if Saab itself has been doing much in this regard since GM tends
> to
> put the lid on anything controversial (as do Ford - witness the 'before
> their time' electric vehicles that each company tries to deny ever
> existed)
> that will upset other industries that GM depends on for the indirect
> revenue
> sources into the automotive manufacturing industry as a whole.
>
>>The same comparison (based on energy content) also applies to E10,
>>which almost never provides the same value as petrol.
>
> Yep noticed this first-hand, and I think people are being duped because
> the
> pricing of E10 is a little cheaper than the same octane-rated conventional
> petrol so they believe they're getting better value.
>
> Craig.
> --
> Craig's Saab C900 Page at | Craig's Classic Saab Workshop - Sydney
> .au
> http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | http://www.classicsaab.net and other
> URL's
> Email: c900.RemoveThis@lios.apana.org.au | For Saab 99/C900/9000 Enthusiasts
> World-Wide!
> Alternate: saabonaut.RemoveThis@gmail.com | Web-forums, galleries, library, links,
> etc.
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

In article <fv10i9$af3$1@yoda.apana.org.au>, c900 DeleteThis @lios.apana.org.au
says...
> Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations DeleteThis @hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >Saab C900 Viggenist wrote:
>
> >> Last night I met up with the person who has the very first 2008-built MY08
> >> Saab 9-3 BioPower car sold in Australia. That car has the capability to run
> >> on ethanol blend fuels up to 85 percent ethanol (aka E85), however I was
> >> very amazed when he was telling about how E85 can't be purchased from the
> >> small number of outlets that stock it around Australia without 'registering'
> >> on a federal government database, and service stations that do have it will
> >> deliberately lie when you ask them about it if your vehicle is not
> >> registered in this database!
>
> >Perhaps you can provide some evidence of this ?
>
> Of the 'database'? The owner of the bio-power 9-3 had a phone call directly
> from someone who's a techincal expert from Brazil brought to Australia by
> Manildra to help set up the process of producing E85 fuel.
>
> He arranged with the person who owns the car in question to register them on
> the database and now he can legally buy E85 from any Australian outlet that
> stocks it. The guy from Brazil is living somewhere close to where the owner
> of the bio-power 9-3 lives on the northern beaches area. Seeing as it's the
> very first 08-buily my08 bio-power 9-3 to be sold in Australia, it's
> currently a unique vehicle!
>
> I didn't know E85 was even available in Australia yet, but clearly it is.
> Why it's not legal to buy without 'approval' is still a mystery. I believe
> it's due to the excise issue. I bet once more manufacturers start making
> cars that run on high-proportional ethanol fuels things will change (and the
> price of ethanol fuel blends will rise).
>
> Craig.
>
Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it.

Al
--
Like Noddy, as I travel through life, it's not the personal attacks
I'm concerned about, it's being recognised wearing lippy and a dress.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

In article <MPG.22804077cd51d635989765 DeleteThis @nntp.aioe.org>,
alb_mandctdNOWMD DeleteThis @connexus.net.au says...

> Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it.
>
toasr tost toste toast

Al
--
I don't take sides.
It's more fun to insult everyone.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

Albm&ctd <alb_mandctdNOWMD.RemoveThis@connexus.net.au> writes:

>Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it.

That's probably true with just about all existing vehicles, but it's not
really a sensible reason to make it 'illegal' to buy without being
'registered' with the Federal government.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment... If there were no special
deals/arrangements in place, there would be no reason to restrict it's sale.
If the 'offset' for the excise doesn't constitute a 'special arrangement',
then I wonder what does.

If someone was silly enough to put it in an vehicle not designed to run on
it, that would be in the same league as trying to run a petrol engine on
diesel, or vice-versa.

Clearly there is some sort of liability protection going on or there'd be no
reason to use a 'prohibition order' style of control mechanism to regulate
end-user supply.

Craig.
--
Craig's Saab C900 Page at | Craig's Classic Saab Workshop - Sydney .au
http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | http://www.classicsaab.net and other URL's
Email: c900.RemoveThis@lios.apana.org.au | For Saab 99/C900/9000 Enthusiasts World-Wide!
Alternate: saabonaut.RemoveThis@gmail.com | Web-forums, galleries, library, links, etc.
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

In article <MPG.22804077cd51d635989765.DeleteThis@nntp.aioe.org>,
alb_mandctdNOWMD.DeleteThis@connexus.net.au says...
> Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it.
>
I doubt it. It won't cause pre-ignition because it is a higher octane.
It may run lean if the engine sensors/ecu don't have a wide enough range
of adaption, but it should still run even if the ecu goes to limphome
mode.

Older carb cars would have less issues as long as there is enough range
on the mixture adjustments/jetting.

Only issue might be if the ethanol reacts with any existing metals or
plastics/rubbers in the fuel system. It is still a spark combustion
fuel.
--
Carl Robson
Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest
Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

In article <MPG.228664ae4c6c7e8b989e31 RemoveThis @news.individual.net>,
carl.robson RemoveThis @bouncing-czechs.com says...
> In article <MPG.22804077cd51d635989765 RemoveThis @nntp.aioe.org>,
> alb_mandctdNOWMD RemoveThis @connexus.net.au says...
> > Probably because E85 will toasr any engine not made to run on it.
> >
> I doubt it. It won't cause pre-ignition because it is a higher octane.
> It may run lean if the engine sensors/ecu don't have a wide enough range
> of adaption, but it should still run even if the ecu goes to limphome
> mode.
>
> Older carb cars would have less issues as long as there is enough range
> on the mixture adjustments/jetting.
>
> Only issue might be if the ethanol reacts with any existing metals or
> plastics/rubbers in the fuel system. It is still a spark combustion
> fuel.
>
Regarding running ethanol, I simply don't think burnt valves, holed
pistons or cracked heads would improve performance or emissions. Not as
bad as methanol though. You MUST make changes to timing and jetting to
run alcohol fuels and you will use far more alcohol than petrol for the
same power output. The ideal is to run alcohol fuels on the rich side to
avoid problems. With methanol it's approximately twice the fuel you would
use on straight petrol. You can't just dump these fuels into an engine
with stock settings and expect the engine to last.

Al
--

Like Noddy, as I travel through life, it's not the personal attacks
I'm concerned about, it's being recognised wearing lippy and a dress.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

In article <MPG.22897e644d8a6ea98977c.DeleteThis@nntp.aioe.org>,
alb_mandctdNOWMD.DeleteThis@connexus.net.au says...
> Regarding running ethanol, I simply don't think burnt valves, holed
> pistons or cracked heads would improve performance or emissions. Not as
> bad as methanol though. You MUST make changes to timing and jetting to
> run alcohol fuels and you will use far more alcohol than petrol for the
> same power output. The ideal is to run alcohol fuels on the rich side to
> avoid problems. With methanol it's approximately twice the fuel you would
> use on straight petrol. You can't just dump these fuels into an engine
> with stock settings and expect the engine to last.
>
I've actually been looking into this a little since joining this
discussion.

I plan, sometime in the near future to tune the Trionic 5 ecu (yes it is
T5.2 1993 ecu but it is still possible) with T5suite.

http://members.home.nl/t5suite/

And in the documentation, there is mention of E85, and tunning the
injector cycle and ignition timing/advance to run E85 through a
mechanically stock T5, and possibly even T7 car.

On the subject of burned valves etc, unlikley to happen if you do add
sufficient extra fuel which is what I said regarding carb jetting and
adaption ranges. I said don't let it run lean. A standard spark ignition
engine, with sufficient fueling is all you need. Just look at
LPG/Propane systems. Propane is far lower than petrol in calorific
value. It doesn't even need to be accuratley measures, just open the
tap, pour it in, fire the spark, drive. No problems. Again, get it too
lean and it will break the engine. A simple gas tester can sort that
out.
--
Carl Robson
Audio stream: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com:8000/samtest
Homepage: http://www.bouncing-czechs.com
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled? 

In article <MPG.2288f83ea1547f05989e45 RemoveThis @news.individual.net>,
carl.robson RemoveThis @bouncing-czechs.com says...
> In article <MPG.22897e644d8a6ea98977c RemoveThis @nntp.aioe.org>,
> alb_mandctdNOWMD RemoveThis @connexus.net.au says...
> > Regarding running ethanol, I simply don't think burnt valves, holed
> > pistons or cracked heads would improve performance or emissions. Not as
> > bad as methanol though. You MUST make changes to timing and jetting to
> > run alcohol fuels and you will use far more alcohol than petrol for the
> > same power output. The ideal is to run alcohol fuels on the rich side to
> > avoid problems. With methanol it's approximately twice the fuel you would
> > use on straight petrol. You can't just dump these fuels into an engine
> > with stock settings and expect the engine to last.
> >
> I've actually been looking into this a little since joining this
> discussion.
>
> I plan, sometime in the near future to tune the Trionic 5 ecu (yes it is
> T5.2 1993 ecu but it is still possible) with T5suite.
>
> http://members.home.nl/t5suite/
>
> And in the documentation, there is mention of E85, and tunning the
> injector cycle and ignition timing/advance to run E85 through a
> mechanically stock T5, and possibly even T7 car.
>
> On the subject of burned valves etc, unlikley to happen if you do add
> sufficient extra fuel which is what I said regarding carb jetting and
> adaption ranges. I said don't let it run lean. A standard spark ignition
> engine, with sufficient fueling is all you need. Just look at
> LPG/Propane systems. Propane is far lower than petrol in calorific
> value. It doesn't even need to be accuratley measures, just open the
> tap, pour it in, fire the spark, drive. No problems. Again, get it too
> lean and it will break the engine. A simple gas tester can sort that
> out.
>
I've run methanol in air cooled engines. It's rather more complicated
than it first appears. With limited knowledge.. Good luck.

Al
--

Like Noddy, as I travel through life, it's not the personal attacks
I'm concerned about, it's being recognised wearing lippy and a dress.
http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html
 >> Stay informed about: Why is the supply of E85 fuel so tightly controlled?