How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed

"Tony" <tonyhackett55 DeleteThis @tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1166874568.518391.99460@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> With all the discussion about engine oil changes, it has prompted me to
> wonder about transmission oils - do the additives wear out or do these
> just keep going? Should they be changed?
> Regards Tony

If you're talking about manual boxes, I change the oil in these about every
50k miles. Same for the differential.
For auto boxes, the jury is still out on this, as many boxes are filled with
so-called 'lifetime oil'; (this is bollocks in my opinion). If you want the
'box to last, I'd replace the fluid every 50-60k miles. The special oil for
my ZF auto box is about £95.00 for 20Litres from BMW, but I have recently
found an excellent local auto trans specialist who can change all of the
fluid and replace the filters for ~£125 using approved fluid and genuine
filters.

JB
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

for BMW with engine M54

read "Engine Reliability"

http://www.bmwworld.com/engines/m54.htm


"Tony" <tonyhackett55.TakeThisOut@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1166874568.518391.99460@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
: With all the discussion about engine oil changes, it has prompted me to
: wonder about transmission oils - do the additives wear out or do these
: just keep going? Should they be changed?
: Regards Tony
:
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

"Jim" wrote
> for BMW with engine M54
>
> read "Engine Reliability"
>
> http://www.bmwworld.com/engines/m54.htm

The question is, what is their definition of "lifetime"? If the tranny
fails and has to be replaced at 100K miles, then surely the oil inside has
lasted it its entire lifetime, but oh what a short life it was.

Pete
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

"Pete" <escape2music.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:emlspd$2q$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>
> "Jim" wrote
>> for BMW with engine M54
>>
>> read "Engine Reliability"
>>
>> http://www.bmwworld.com/engines/m54.htm
>
> The question is, what is their definition of "lifetime"? If the tranny
> fails and has to be replaced at 100K miles, then surely the oil inside has
> lasted it its entire lifetime, but oh what a short life it was.
>
Agree. BMW went to "lifetime" fluids when it started extending its warranty.
A BMW transmission and differential should last ALOT more than 100K miles.
Interestingly, before it went to lifetime fluids, the recommended change
interval was 30K miles for transmission, both automatic and manual, and
differential. Then again if you lease your car or get a new one every 2-3
years, then "lifetime" is fine as you care less about a car that has more
than 100K miles on it. Sad....
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

"bfd" <bfd853 DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:S4ednT-9NdxjZxPYnZ2dnUVZ_hm3nZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Pete" <escape2music DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:emlspd$2q$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>
>> "Jim" wrote
>>> for BMW with engine M54
>>>
>>> read "Engine Reliability"
>>>
>>> http://www.bmwworld.com/engines/m54.htm
>>
>> The question is, what is their definition of "lifetime"? If the tranny
>> fails and has to be replaced at 100K miles, then surely the oil inside
>> has lasted it its entire lifetime, but oh what a short life it was.
>>
> Agree. BMW went to "lifetime" fluids when it started extending its
> warranty. A BMW transmission and differential should last ALOT more than
> 100K miles. Interestingly, before it went to lifetime fluids, the
> recommended change interval was 30K miles for transmission, both automatic
> and manual, and differential. Then again if you lease your car or get a
> new one every 2-3 years, then "lifetime" is fine as you care less about a
> car that has more than 100K miles on it. Sad....
>

Sad?

Your view is lost on me. If one is not comfortable with "lifetime", then get
the fluid changed. Most modern cars have 100k fluid in the trans and
diff(s), but there is no reason the fluid can not be changed on your own
schedule -- presumably a shorter interval.

If one leases, then they generally do so to avoid these kinds of maintenance
issues since there is no lease on the planet that will rack up sufficient
miles to need a fluid change of any kind -- other than the motor oil and
_perhaps_ coolant and brake fluid.

Even if the trans and diff fluids have a limited lifespan, a lease car will
never approach the life of these fluids without incurring siginficant
over-miles charges on the lease -- a fee that will pretty much destroy any
advantage that leasing might offer the average driver.

The definition of "lifetime" is the normal and customary life of a vehicle,
not the maximum possible life. Industry standard says that most cars last
about 8 years, and get about 15k miles per year. 8 X 15 = 120, so it seems
reasonable to me that lifetime means about 100000 miles or so. I see nothing
at all "sad" in a lfe expectancy like that. To be sure, I keep my cars much
longer than that, and I put more miles on in a year -- or, I used to but my
annual miles have been cut in the past 18 months or so, but that's me.

I think that if the dealership (factory) covers the warranty to 100k on the
original fluid, then it must be okay to keep it in that long. If the
warranty expires and the original fluid is still in the car, then I think a
smart person would go ahead and change it and pray the components last
another 100k miles. Odds favor a failure that is not related to fluid
changes ...
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WqydnQkfwI1AYhPYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@ez2.net...
>
> "bfd" <bfd853 RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:S4ednT-9NdxjZxPYnZ2dnUVZ_hm3nZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Pete" <escape2music RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:emlspd$2q$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>>
>>> "Jim" wrote
>>>> for BMW with engine M54
>>>>
>>>> read "Engine Reliability"
>>>>
>>>> http://www.bmwworld.com/engines/m54.htm
>>>
>>> The question is, what is their definition of "lifetime"? If the tranny
>>> fails and has to be replaced at 100K miles, then surely the oil inside
>>> has lasted it its entire lifetime, but oh what a short life it was.
>>>
>> Agree. BMW went to "lifetime" fluids when it started extending its
>> warranty. A BMW transmission and differential should last ALOT more than
>> 100K miles. Interestingly, before it went to lifetime fluids, the
>> recommended change interval was 30K miles for transmission, both
>> automatic and manual, and differential. Then again if you lease your car
>> or get a new one every 2-3 years, then "lifetime" is fine as you care
>> less about a car that has more than 100K miles on it. Sad....
>>
>
> Sad?
>
> Your view is lost on me. If one is not comfortable with "lifetime", then
> get the fluid changed. Most modern cars have 100k fluid in the trans and
> diff(s), but there is no reason the fluid can not be changed on your own
> schedule -- presumably a shorter interval.

Are the extended service intervals genuinely a function of lubrication
improvements, or is the marketing department getting the final say? The
auto trans has a different and improved fluid which was originally called
"lifetime fill" and is now on a 100K schedule. The manual trans is now
filled with synthetic ATF vice a dedicated transmission lube (primarily to
resolve customer complaints about sluggish cold shifting) and is "lifetime
fill." But did the lube get that much better (used to be 30K) or is it just
to make 50K "free" maintenance an affordable marketing ploy?

> If one leases, then they generally do so to avoid these kinds of
> maintenance issues since there is no lease on the planet that will rack up
> sufficient miles to need a fluid change of any kind -- other than the
> motor oil and _perhaps_ coolant and brake fluid.
>
> Even if the trans and diff fluids have a limited lifespan, a lease car
> will never approach the life of these fluids without incurring siginficant
> over-miles charges on the lease -- a fee that will pretty much destroy any
> advantage that leasing might offer the average driver.

All true.

> The definition of "lifetime" is the normal and customary life of a
> vehicle, not the maximum possible life. Industry standard says that most
> cars last about 8 years, and get about 15k miles per year. 8 X 15 = 120,
> so it seems reasonable to me that lifetime means about 100000 miles or so.
> I see nothing at all "sad" in a lfe expectancy like that. To be sure, I
> keep my cars much longer than that, and I put more miles on in a year --
> or, I used to but my annual miles have been cut in the past 18 months or
> so, but that's me.

Who's definitition? Certainly the 3-4 year lease holder. Possibly the
average 1st owner. OTOH, lots of cars get second owners and lots have
"lifetimes" at least twice what you propose.

> I think that if the dealership (factory) covers the warranty to 100k on
> the original fluid, then it must be okay to keep it in that long. If the
> warranty expires and the original fluid is still in the car, then I think
> a smart person would go ahead and change it and pray the components last
> another 100k miles. Odds favor a failure that is not related to fluid
> changes ...

BMW's warrantee is 50K. Fine for infant mortality of components, but
unlikely to catch the neglected or marginally serviced ones. I'd like to
see a 100K warrantee, particularly on drivetrain and cooling system
(radiators being a weakness in recent BMW's), but I doubt BMW is going to
offer one.

I intend to have my E39 for some time (perhaps beyond 200K), so the fluids
are going to be changed on the pre-free maintenance schedule. There are
consumable components (pads and rotors, wiper blades, etc) that I expect to
replace, but I'm hoping that the only unscheduled replacements will be a
radiator and water pump ... hopefully not after a catastrophic failure.

R / John
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

"John Carrier" wrote
> The manual trans is now filled with synthetic ATF vice a dedicated
> transmission lube

That's interesting. Got a link to more info? Last I've heard the OEM fluid
was still some type of GL4/GL5 75w-90 synthetic manual gear oil...

Thanks,
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

Not off the top of my head, but you can google it. Most of those who want
to replace the OEM fluid use Redline D4 ATF or Royal Purple Synchromax
(http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/tranxref.html). I went with Redline MTL
which is a bit more viscous, a bit better lube, but requires a bit of
deliberate shifting when cold (below 40F or so).

Diff takes a 75/90 synthetic gear oil, and the P/S (forgot about it, didn't
you) D4 ATF.

Engine oil. The service is somewhere in the 12-17K mile range based on the
indicator. E-39's and E-46's just monitored fuel quantity consumed (a
pretty good approximation of service actually). The earlier cars were a bit
more exotic (cold starts, etc) and the later cars evidently are too. The
biggest problem with extended service is the additive package tends to go
the earliest. You get good lubrication, good filtration, but some
accumulation of (catch-all word) sludge. Particularly noticable in V-8's.
With newer cars (not M's!), typically 5W30. I think any good synthetic will
do (BMW, Mobil 1, etc). If you're particular: Amsoil, Redline or R/P. I'd
go with the boutique stuff if I planned on using the service interval
recommendations.

I think any decent synthetic lube changed at somewhat aggressive intervals
will maximize the service life of the component. Go with the boutique stuff
if you want to stretch things a bit.

Coolant. Every 2 years from production date with BMW coolant or its
equivalent (which nobody seems to know exactly).

Brake fluid. At least every 2 years with proper spec.

If you're on a lease or won't own the car for 200K+, it's not worth it.
This is the EXTENDED maintenance plan (which is remarkably similar to the
pre-free-maintenance plan).

R / John

"Pete" <escape2music.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:emovn3$ph2$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>
> "John Carrier" wrote
>> The manual trans is now filled with synthetic ATF vice a dedicated
>> transmission lube
>
> That's interesting. Got a link to more info? Last I've heard the OEM
> fluid was still some type of GL4/GL5 75w-90 synthetic manual gear oil...
>
> Thanks,
> Pete
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

John Carrier wrote:
> Not off the top of my head, but you can google it. Most of those who want
> to replace the OEM fluid use Redline D4 ATF or Royal Purple Synchromax
> (http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/tranxref.html). I went with Redline MTL
> which is a bit more viscous, a bit better lube, but requires a bit of
> deliberate shifting when cold (below 40F or so).
>

I've used both Redline and RP and like both. For cold shifting, Redline
recommended D4 ATF in my manual transmission.

> Diff takes a 75/90 synthetic gear oil, and the P/S (forgot about it, didn't
> you) D4 ATF.
>
Good Point!

> Engine oil. The service is somewhere in the 12-17K mile range based on the
> indicator. E-39's and E-46's just monitored fuel quantity consumed (a
> pretty good approximation of service actually). The earlier cars were a bit
> more exotic (cold starts, etc) and the later cars evidently are too. The
> biggest problem with extended service is the additive package tends to go
> the earliest. You get good lubrication, good filtration, but some
> accumulation of (catch-all word) sludge. Particularly noticable in V-8's.
> With newer cars (not M's!), typically 5W30. I think any good synthetic will
> do (BMW, Mobil 1, etc). If you're particular: Amsoil, Redline or R/P. I'd
> go with the boutique stuff if I planned on using the service interval
> recommendations.
>
> I think any decent synthetic lube changed at somewhat aggressive intervals
> will maximize the service life of the component. Go with the boutique stuff
> if you want to stretch things a bit.
>
For those still using dino oil, 3K to 5K interval is fine.

> Coolant. Every 2 years from production date with BMW coolant or its
> equivalent (which nobody seems to know exactly).
>
I found the "equivalent" to be SAAB "blue" coolant. In the US, SAAB
blue is Valvoline Zerex G48, which happens to be EXACTLY the same thing
as BMW coolant:

http://tinyurl.com/wdth9

> Brake fluid. At least every 2 years with proper spec.
>
> If you're on a lease or won't own the car for 200K+, it's not worth it.
> This is the EXTENDED maintenance plan (which is remarkably similar to the
> pre-free-maintenance plan).
>
Agree!
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

John Carrier wrote:

>I intend to have my E39 for some time (perhaps beyond 200K), so the fluids
>are going to be changed on the pre-free maintenance schedule.

That's all nice to do and all. But when I asked my dealer about
changing the "lifetime" fluid in my E46 323, the quote was like $1200.

I don't know what's in that fluid to make it so expensive...
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

"dizzy" <dizzy DeleteThis @nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:nor8p290nrjh69j6ta7m5g6nh26t645ajm@4ax.com...
> John Carrier wrote:
>
>>I intend to have my E39 for some time (perhaps beyond 200K), so the fluids
>>are going to be changed on the pre-free maintenance schedule.
>
> That's all nice to do and all. But when I asked my dealer about
> changing the "lifetime" fluid in my E46 323, the quote was like $1200.
>
> I don't know what's in that fluid to make it so expensive...
>

It's just chock full of profit
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

The auto fluid is very expensive and they've conveniently determined the
change interval to be 100K (well outside 50k "free" maintenance). $1200
still sounds outrageous. Do you have an independent BMW mechanic in town?
Even given the high fluid cost (several $100), it ain't THAT hard to do a
service.

I also suspect that there's an alternative to the OEM fluid (it's just a ZF
trans, right?) that's cheaper than what the dealer sells. (Don't know ...
the benefits of a manual trans.) I don't think there's a magical elexir
that, unless used, will trash the trans ... but that's just my opinion. If
it's out of warranty, it's just the "well, if I don't mess with it, it'll be
fine, or if I only use the OEM fluid at $XXXX it'll be fine or if I change
it for just a really good synthetic fluid I might screw up" factor. That's
the hell of it. Nobody knows. Even Mike Miller (BMWCA and Bimmer mag tech
guy) doesn't have an answer.

Perhaps you could buy the OEM fluid (I'm sure there's a given amount
required for a flush/fill) and DIY. I did all my fluids for relatively
little cost using Redline MTL, 75w90 gear oil and D4 ATF (P/S). Used BMW
coolant for the flush.

OTOH, you could inquire major boutique fluid makers (Redline, Royal Purple,
Amsoil) and find out if they have a fluid for your trans. There's GOT to be
a solution cheaper than $1200.

R / John

"dizzy" <dizzy.RemoveThis@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:nor8p290nrjh69j6ta7m5g6nh26t645ajm@4ax.com...
> John Carrier wrote:
>
>>I intend to have my E39 for some time (perhaps beyond 200K), so the fluids
>>are going to be changed on the pre-free maintenance schedule.
>
> That's all nice to do and all. But when I asked my dealer about
> changing the "lifetime" fluid in my E46 323, the quote was like $1200.
>
> I don't know what's in that fluid to make it so expensive...
>
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed 

"John Carrier" <jxc2.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:
> OTOH, you could inquire major boutique fluid makers (Redline, Royal
> Purple, Amsoil) and find out if they have a fluid for your trans. There's
> GOT to be a solution cheaper than $1200.

The highly overpriced fluid is probably ESSO LT71141. Many people
complain but do no research. In fact, AMSOIL ATF meets the ESSO
LT71141 spec as well as BMW 7045E, and ZF TE-ML 14A, B, & C.

I am not an AMSOIL dealer, but I do use their ATF in place of the
BMW "lifetime" fluid.
 >> Stay informed about: How often should gearbox and axle oils be changed