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Next: Here's a sleeper Hawk
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Since: May 07, 2004 Posts: 506
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: alt>autos>studebaker (more info?)
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Well, if the stated goal of judging is "as produced
new by Studebaker, no better or worse", then what happens if I rev up
my time machine, go back to 1955 and buy a brand new Speedster right
off the showroom floor, and haul back to the future, and drive it 400
miles to the SDC National in Spokane?
It's going to have dust on the frame, I guarantee you. Heck, they
probably accumulated dust on the frame going down the line in the
plant.
What we need for judging is reasonable standard of cleanliness, not an
UN-reasonable standard.
Anybody want to try to set some rules to define a reasonable standard
of cleanliness? Perhaps if we could reach some kind of consensus here,
we could pass a write-up on to the new chief judge for consideration.
Gord Richmond >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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Since: May 06, 2004 Posts: 403
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>Anybody want to try to set some rules to define a reasonable standard
>of cleanliness? Perhaps if we could reach some kind of consensus here,
>we could pass a write-up on to the new chief judge for consideration.
I think the first thing anyone should do is to look thru the books on
Studebaker and look at the factory photos, I mean seriously look at them. Of
the many 50-52 cars shown in the compendium book shows that the hods did not
fit correctly in the back at the cowl, they stick up. Looking down the last
photo in the book is a line of 47's Cmdrs on one side, Champs on the other,
none of th e hoods, especially on the Cmdr line fit the same.
I am quite sure there were recomended methods as to the placement of wires,
routing of hoses etc, but I am quite sure that there were guys on the line who
felt they knew better and moved a hose over to there, or under this gizomo to
make it easier to work on that.
You keep mentioning as was, not better, then how can you seriously allow a car
with a $3000 to $10000 paint job using modern coatings to be entered into the
"stock" class. Does anyone really remember what an old enamel paint job really
looked like?
I still have yet to have heard a definitive statement as weither trunk
interiors and the underside of trunk lids were painted griege or body color.
Before we go through re-writing the methods of judging, we seriously need to
look at or state certain acceptble guidelines. When we show a car should it not
be re-built to the factory build sheet? If the car did not have twin rear
antennas when built, then points off if it show up with them on. If the car
was puss green from the plant, then it has to be puss green at the end of
restoration.
Maybe that might be a bit too intense, but if the judges are demanding accuracy
then bringing the car back to its original colors makes the car correct.
Does anyone remember the Speedster at Keene NH? Maybe Studebaker turned out one
or two cars like that for display at car shows or special press events, but
surely, now speedster ever came off a carrier or was delivered to a dealer in
that condition.
BG >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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Since: May 13, 2004 Posts: 259
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Gordon Richmond" wrote in message
> Well, if the stated goal of judging is "as produced
> new by Studebaker, no better or worse", then what happens if I rev up
> my time machine, go back to 1955 and buy a brand new Speedster right
> off the showroom floor, and haul back to the future, and drive it 400
> miles to the SDC National in Spokane?
Ask Gary Johnson. He did just that in 1983 in South Bend. As a dealer, he
drove a brand new '83 Avanti down the street from the plant when it was
there at the time, and had it judged with the rest of that Avanti class at
that year's International. Sorry, I don't remember the results, but I'm
certain none of the workers at the plant at the time knew it was going to be
judged, and yes, it would be intereting to see how it fared next to the
restored examples..
Craig.
>
> It's going to have dust on the frame, I guarantee you. Heck, they
> probably accumulated dust on the frame going down the line in the
> plant.
>
> What we need for judging is reasonable standard of cleanliness, not an
> UN-reasonable standard.
>
> Anybody want to try to set some rules to define a reasonable standard
> of cleanliness? Perhaps if we could reach some kind of consensus here,
> we could pass a write-up on to the new chief judge for consideration.
>
> Gord Richmond >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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Since: May 12, 2004 Posts: 193
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Maybe that might be a bit too intense, but if the judges are demanding
accuracy
> then bringing the car back to its original colors makes the car correct.
I agree that that might be too intense.
Most of us do this for several reasons, not the least of which is the love
for the cars. Too some, that is on the top of the list, and that's OK,
'cause we each make our own list.
It is important to some others to have some fun in the process. Such strict
"standards" would take a lot of the fun out of it for a lot of folks.
I usually get paid to work my ass off in order to accomplish something
someone else desires.
--
Dave Lester
Home of the Internationally Renowned 'Sheba and Goliath
See pictures at <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.davesplaceinc.com" target="_blank">www.davesplaceinc.com</a> >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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Since: May 08, 2004 Posts: 328
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:48 am
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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So Gord, if you do that what happens to the guy would would have bought
the Speedster otherwise? Does Studebaker build an extra Speedster, if
so what about the parts, that leaves one less set of NOS chrome stuff to
restore another speedster with. It changes all the records too...
Time travel can really confuse things <BG>
Jeff DeWitt
Gordon Richmond wrote:
> Well, if the stated goal of judging is "as produced
> new by Studebaker, no better or worse", then what happens if I rev up
> my time machine, go back to 1955 and buy a brand new Speedster right
> off the showroom floor, and haul back to the future, and drive it 400
> miles to the SDC National in Spokane?
>
> It's going to have dust on the frame, I guarantee you. Heck, they
> probably accumulated dust on the frame going down the line in the
> plant.
>
> What we need for judging is reasonable standard of cleanliness, not an
> UN-reasonable standard.
>
> Anybody want to try to set some rules to define a reasonable standard
> of cleanliness? Perhaps if we could reach some kind of consensus here,
> we could pass a write-up on to the new chief judge for consideration.
>
> Gord Richmond >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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Since: May 07, 2004 Posts: 506
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:25 am
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: May 07, 2004 Posts: 506
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:38 am
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Bill,
We've all seen those factory photos of cars going down the line, and
maybe at the point the photos were taken, the hoods were misaligned.
I expect Studebaker has a department that fixed such things to some
extent before the cars were shipped; and that department would not
likely be photographed for publication. But I think most manufacturers
have or had areas where fit and finish issues were resolved on
completed cars. Makes more sense to do it that way than stop the
entire line while workers wrestle with an ill-fitting hood.
But I agree, many cars were sold with less than perfect body panel
alignment.
It becomes a bit of a dilemma for an owner restoring a car. Do you
intentionally build a less-than perfect car because you know that's
the way that the factory did it? Or do you build it perfect, because
that's the way the designers envisioned it being built?
On the whole it is probably easier to build "perfect" than to
establish the right DEGREE of "imperfect".
Same with paint. Do you really want to put third-rate paint on your
car simply because what the factory used in 1956 is about equal to
today's third-rate paint?
I personally would worry too much about the paint. So the car I'm
judging has nice, shiny paint, base/clear as a matter of fact. If it's
well done, and close to a stock Stude color, it is, as far as I'm
concerned, a reasonable facsimile of the original alkyd enamel, which
WAS nice and shiny when new.
OTOH, if it has chrome hood hinges, it's undisputably over-restored.
Gord Richmond >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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Since: May 06, 2004 Posts: 403
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:59 am
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>I expect Studebaker has a department that fixed such things to some
>extent before the cars were shipped; and that department would not
>likely be photographed for publication.
Take a look at the phot of Miss Texas, Arkansas, or Miss Newark standing next
to the bullet nose ragtop. go past her legs and lugus protrubus and look at the
hood and the door alignment.
Unless she was posing on the line that car is at a dealership. Then look at
some of the photos of other cars at dealeships where all 47 Cmdrs lena to the
left. Once you seen those check the door fit of the light background air
brushed photos and the sides of the hoods.
All I am really is saying, is that if there was room for Studebaker to adjust
with shims, move panels backand forth, and have rocker panels bow slightly in
different directions, how come some of the cars we see at shows have solved all
the issues that mass produced Studebakers did suffer from.
I think too many cars are over restored, including my car. I recently saw 16mm
footage of me walking around my dads brand new 56 Golden Hawk. The one in my
garage looks like some hand built protoytype rather thanthe one in our home
movies. BTW the home movies were taken the week he took delivery of the car.
Bill >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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Since: May 07, 2004 Posts: 506
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(Msg. 24) Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:19 am
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Well, I did say they fixed things to "some extent". I'm sure there was
a limit on the time the factory would spend to correct assembly-line
misalaignments. Time=$, after all.
Gord Richmond >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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Since: May 13, 2004 Posts: 259
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(Msg. 25) Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Gordon Richmond" wrote in message
> Well, I did say they fixed things to "some extent". I'm sure there was
> a limit on the time the factory would spend to correct assembly-line
> misalaignments. Time=$, after all.
>
> Gord Richmond
When one analyzes all the build sheets for cars that were destined for the
various auto shows around the country at the time, one can read lines such
as "special show car prepartion-Tag: NY Auto Show" for example. Some of
these have been reprinted in TW, and give mention of the extra prepartion
that was usually handled by Engineering thus giving credence that most of
the cars you see at a meet are indeed over-restored. I have seen a few
original 1953 coupes, and bel-
ieve me, Studebaker should have been ashamed of themselves letting them
leave the factory that way. But if one restored an early '53 as to
"original" (eg. varying gaps around the trunk, hood, etc.), how are the
judges going to assess it next to a '55 coupe that has improved fit? As for
materials, can you find the old
air dry enamel anymore; especially when it is so sub-standard to todays
two-part paints? Not to mention, in the case of metallics, the aluminum
flecks are larger now as opposed to 40 years ago, so it would be almost
impossible to duplicate the original "Sapphire-Lustre" finish.
Craig >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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Since: May 08, 2004 Posts: 328
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Judging [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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That poor Speedster had stopped being a car and had turned into a prop,
like the lemon lime clothes and patio furniture.
Jeff DeWitt
Bill Glass wrote:
> There are trailer queens and there are trailer queens.
>
> There are drivers and there are drivers, and then the modifieds and THE
> MODIFIEDS.
>
> I think it was JP who said that having your car judged is allowing others to
> pick apart your hard work and your hard earned money spent, and if that is your
> will go for it.
>
> I wonder what is in us that makes us want to gain the approval of others, or to
> have the best of something in a competitive situation.
>
> I do not want to rationalize, but in reality if my car would have made it from
> NY and back for the show at Charlotte, I would have considered her the best of
> show, as I know the jerk who built her.
>
> When I restored my Hawk I discovered a small 4 wire terminal down behind the
> battery just above the steering colum. When I ordered my harness from Rhode
> Island wiring and had the car wired and everything worked, there were no wires
> going to, or coming from that terminal strip.
>
> After many calls to RI Wiring, and communicating with Frank A. it was
> discovered/uncovered/found that early on in the making of 56J's part of the
> harness was split into two pieces. When it was discovered that they did not
> need an extra set of wires to go from ignition to cutout switch to starter,
> Studebaker eliminated the terminal and put the hrness in as one piece rather
> than two.
>
> Are you willling to stand in the hot sun and argue with some gent who did not
> know about htis change and argue for an afternoon that your wiring is correct?
> When did the change come about, what body number was the last with the two
> harness set up, etc.
>
> When I said there are two types of trailer queens I meant it. I was at a show
> where a family showed up with a Lemon lime Speedster, once the car was prep'd
> that is, a can of fuel hung from the underside of the hood latch they started
> up the engine. The black smoke that came out of the tail pipes looked like an
> 0-8-0 locomotive just did a run by.
>
> Once the car was in position, the gas can was removed and the family retired
> into the trailer, ten min later everyone came out dressed in lemon and lime
> matching clothing, then came out the lemon and lime patio furniture to be
> placed around the car.
>
> The engine was perfectly detailed, but I will bet that it could not to this day
> get the car over 10 mph.
>
> Why would you want to even attempt to go up against that car. My car is driven
> and is modofied, but since Charlotte, changing one clamp or one wire can make
> the car modified, how can you judge my modified against a Charlotte modified?
>
> I think if John is going to write an article on judging, it should be on the
> aboloshing of judging, why do we need to know that in ten peoples eyes, and ten
> people only on this given day, this given car, is the best car? Tomorrow, the
> lighting could change, moods could change, and the best car yesterday might not
> be considered nothing but a parts car.
>
> BG >> Stay informed about: Judging |
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