dwelling place as a marker of ... ?

In article <40DF2C61.A58B2B50.RemoveThis@luckymojo.com>, cat.RemoveThis@luckymojo.com says...
 >
 >Beheaded Scapegoat wrote:
  >>
  >> cat.RemoveThis@luckymojo.com says...
  >>
  >> I think 'art car' people are neither particularly creative or
  >> interesting, but they sure as hell want to be. Thelemites and art
  >> car afficionados seem to share that affliction.
 >
 >I disregard mind-reading acts based on generalities. What
 >*you* think might be of interest to me -- but what you
 >assert *they* think is just more of what *you* think, in the
 >tawdry disguise of authority.


and why must my authority be 'tawdry'? That's the best you can to do to
demonstrate that your authority on the matter deserves to override mine.

 >
 >Judging whether a person is "creative" can be measured at
 >least in part by the volume of production of new and novel
 >concepts and finished projects produced.
 >Under those
 >semi-objective terms, art car makers (who may differ from
 >your generalized "art car aficinados," the latter being mere
 >enthusiasyts and fans) are certainly quite creative.

Fair enough, of course the act of gluing instamatik cameras is 'creative', even
if 100 people have already done it. But I am comparing the creativity of those
people to the creativity of people who choose to channel their creativity into
different areas. As far as creative endevours for humans goes, making an art
car scores low creativity points as far as I'm concerned. Yes it's art, but
the art is secondary. At the forefront is the need for attention and
belonging. People choose all sorts of subcultures to latch into. For example
one an art car person might be covered in tatoos and travel to Phish concerts.
This allows him access to the art car subculture, the tattooed subculture, and
the Deadhead subculture. That's a lot of social life for the average loser.
Another art car person might recognize the benefits of tapping into several
subcultures, too and get tattooed and start going to Phish concerts. Or
someone going to Phish concerts might see art cars show up and decide it'd be
beneficial for his social life to throw together an art car next time he goes
to the Phish concert...


 >It
 >takes vision, time, and energy to lay up fiberglass, to
 >paint, to encrust with tiles or shells or cameras, to weld,
 >to glue, to upholster, and to otherwise craft an art car.
 >

True enough. It takes the same sort of dedicated paper-mache craziness to
develop the elaborate costumes of the indian tribes who come out during mardis
gras, too.


 >Who are you, beheaded scapegoat? Obviously you are one of
 >the regulars around alt.magick rather than
 >alt.autos.artcars...
 >

you're right but I didn't start this crossposted thread, you did<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

In article <2k8nvuF18gd3vU1.RemoveThis@uni-berlin.de>, alexander.RemoveThis@mail2america.com says...
 >
 >In alt.magick, Beheaded Sacrifice wrote:
  >> In article <8d9826c7.0406270231.1c894312.RemoveThis@posting.google.com>,
  >> e_nihilist.RemoveThis@yahoo.com says...
   >>>
   >>>Magick isn't necessarily about becoming rich. I think magick is about
   >>>becoming the best person you can be;
  >>
  >> so it's christianity for people who want to pretend to be cool and
interesting?
  >>
 >
 >She's not pretending anything. Cat *is* cool and interesting.
 >

another victim of attention deficit disorder... I was responding to nihilist
not Cat.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

Beheaded Sacrifice wrote:
 >
 > In article <40DF2C61.A58B2B50.TakeThisOut@luckymojo.com>, cat.TakeThisOut@luckymojo.com says...
  > >
  > >Beheaded Scapegoat wrote:
   > >>
   > >> cat.TakeThisOut@luckymojo.com says...
   > >>
   > >> I think 'art car' people are neither particularly creative or
   > >> interesting, but they sure as hell want to be. Thelemites and
   > >> art car afficionados seem to share that affliction.
  > >
  > >I disregard mind-reading acts based on generalities. What
  > >*you* think might be of interest to me -- but what you
  > >assert *they* think is just more of what *you* think, in the
  > >tawdry disguise of authority.
 >
 > and why must my authority be 'tawdry'? That's the best you can to
 > do to demonstrate that your authority on the matter deserves to
 > override mine.

<ADD alert> I said the disguise was tawdry, not the
authority. </ADD alert>

  > >Judging whether a person is "creative" can be measured at
  > >least in part by the volume of production of new and novel
  > >concepts and finished projects produced.
  > >Under those
  > >semi-objective terms, art car makers (who may differ from
  > >your generalized "art car aficinados," the latter being mere
  > >enthusiasts and fans) are certainly quite creative.
 >
 > Fair enough, of course the act of gluing instamatik cameras is
 > 'creative', even if 100 people have already done it. B

If you are referring to Harrod Blank's Camera Van (i was, at
least), only one person has done it -- Harrod Blank. And the
point is not how many Instamatics are glued onto the van,
because there is a lot more going on there than accretion.
For instance, some seemingly "dummy" cameras on the side of
the van actually make video films of people looking at the
Camera Van and project them to those on the other side of
the van in real time -- like Candid Camera. And when the Van
is driving, the landscape on the one side is being projected
through the van to the monitors on the other side, making
it, in a sense, "tranmsparent." It's quite an art
installation and it always captures the engaged mind-opening
attention of children as well as adults. it is, simply put,
unique and cool art.

 > But I am comparing the creativity of those people to the
 > creativity of people who choose to channel their creativity into
 > different areas. As far as creative endevours for humans goes,
 > making an art car scores low creativity points as far as I'm
 > concerned. Yes it's art, but the art is secondary. At the
 > forefront is the need for attention and belonging. People
 > choose all sorts of subcultures to latch into. For example
 > one an art car person might be covered in tatoos and travel to
 > Phish concerts. This allows him access to the art car subculture,
 > the tattooed subculture, and the Deadhead subculture. That's a
 > lot of social life for the average loser. [...]

Well enough, but there are other reasons for making art cars
which may have eluded you. Some of us (siva and me, for
example) dislike the petrochemical indutry, the way that
roads cut up wild land and make small-animal migrations a
deadly slaughter, the way that people are exploited and
their cultures destroyed to make way for oil company
hegemonies, the way that car companies refuse to limit
emissions or engine size, the way that consumers use cars to
symbolize wealth and therefore buy the most gas-guzzling,
imposing vehicles they can afford. For us the car is a
necessity -- we live out in the sticks and have to drive to
town about twice a week -- so we choose to use it for a
secondary purpose, to remind people of the sacred, of the
animals, and of the needfulness to devalue cars as
giantified shiny juggernauts and consider them as humble
vehicles of transport and individualtion. When cheap used
electric cars become available, we'll make the move to one
of those -- for now the low-powered Ford Escort serves as
the base for the moving altar within wheich we ride.
 >
  > >It
  > >takes vision, time, and energy to lay up fiberglass, to
  > >paint, to encrust with tiles or shells or cameras, to weld,
  > >to glue, to upholster, and to otherwise craft an art car.
 >
 > True enough. It takes the same sort of dedicated paper-mache
 > craziness to develop the elaborate costumes of the indian tribes who
 > come out during mardis gras, too.

Absolutely! I love that stuff.

  > >Who are you, beheaded scapegoat? Obviously you are one of
  > >the regulars around alt.magick rather than
  > >alt.autos.artcars...
 >
 > you're right but I didn't start this crossposted thread, you did

You're James, right?

cat yronwode<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

Nihilist wrote:
 >
 > catherine yronwode <cat DeleteThis @luckymojo.com> wrote \
 >
  > > i am asking "If someone is a creative person -- script-writer,
  > > artist, screenwriter, magician, author, lecturer, teacher,
  > > magister templi, art car artist, root doctor --
 >
 > That's you, isn't it?

Some, not all of me, and some not of me at all. I've never
written a screen play.

I could have written "my peers." but felt that further
definition was needed.

cat yronwode<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

In article <40DF40F9.FD319088.DeleteThis@luckymojo.com>, cat.DeleteThis@luckymojo.com says...
 >
 >Beheaded Sacrifice wrote:
  >>
  >> In article <40DF2C61.A58B2B50.DeleteThis@luckymojo.com>, cat.DeleteThis@luckymojo.com says...
   >> >
   >> >Beheaded Scapegoat wrote:
   >> >>
   >> >> cat.DeleteThis@luckymojo.com says...
   >> >>
   >> >> I think 'art car' people are neither particularly creative or
   >> >> interesting, but they sure as hell want to be. Thelemites and
   >> >> art car afficionados seem to share that affliction.
   >> >
   >> >I disregard mind-reading acts based on generalities. What
   >> >*you* think might be of interest to me -- but what you
   >> >assert *they* think is just more of what *you* think, in the
   >> >tawdry disguise of authority.
  >>
  >> and why must my authority be 'tawdry'? That's the best you can to
  >> do to demonstrate that your authority on the matter deserves to
  >> override mine.
 >
 ><ADD alert> I said the disguise was tawdry, not the
 >authority. </ADD alert>
 >

You don't seem to know what you're saying.


 >If you are referring to Harrod Blank's Camera Van (i was, at
 >least), only one person has done it -- Harrod Blank.

bullshit, he just got the most on his car before anyone else and went to enough
art car rallies to get noticed.

From Motor Trend magazine:

" "Art Cars" are drivable, street-legal vehicles that have been transformed
into eye-popping works of rolling sculpture using a variety of techniques and
materials, from simple paint to foam, papier mache, mirrors, beads, and
marbles, as well as functional musical instruments and cameras."

So there seems to be a standard selection of trinkets... show up with a
reasonable display of cameras, beads, marbles and coins, and you get an
invitation to a tailgate party. Naturally once in a while an art car
enthusiast breaks from the back, and discovers a new item to stick to his car,
and like, say, clothespegs. This is the bravest and most daring, creative
individual in the art car subculture, for only he advances the culture by
bringing new materials into th scene. By brave, daring and creative, in this
context I mean at a similar level as a Subway 'sandwich artist' taking liberty
with a condiment or two when he puts together a hoagie.



  >>
  >> you're right but I didn't start this crossposted thread, you did
 >
 >You're James, right?
 >
 >

I'm Jesus<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

In article <40DF40F9.FD319088.TakeThisOut@luckymojo.com>, cat.TakeThisOut@luckymojo.com says...
 >

I don't want to come down on art car people, I'm sure they're a fine bunch
taken as a whole or individually. What I have trouble resisting comment to is
cat yronwode's insistance to make everything in life out to have a divine
purpose. I personally think there are probably more than a few art car
enthusiasts who are into for the pure absurdity. Now I don't know if Cat's
significant other 'siva' is male, but if he is I would not be surprised if he
just likes the tailgate parties and endorses Cat's interpretation because it
makes her happy. The other day I saw a t-shirt message that read "Making Love:
something my girlfriend does when I fuck her". I think that sums up what I'm
getting at here. Excuse the misogyny in the analogy if you're capable...



 >
 >Well enough, but there are other reasons for making art cars
 >which may have eluded you. Some of us (siva and me, for
 >example) dislike the petrochemical indutry, the way that
 >roads cut up wild land and make small-animal migrations a
 >deadly slaughter, the way that people are exploited and
 >their cultures destroyed to make way for oil company
 >hegemonies, the way that car companies refuse to limit
 >emissions or engine size, the way that consumers use cars to
 >symbolize wealth and therefore buy the most gas-guzzling,
 >imposing vehicles they can afford. For us the car is a
 >necessity -- we live out in the sticks and have to drive to
 >town about twice a week -- so we choose to use it for a
 >secondary purpose, to remind people of the sacred, of the
 >animals, and of the needfulness to devalue cars as
 >giantified shiny juggernauts and consider them as humble
 >vehicles of transport and individualtion. When cheap used
 >electric cars become available, we'll make the move to one
 >of those -- for now the low-powered Ford Escort serves as
 >the base for the moving altar within wheich we ride.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

ouc.DeleteThis@thathurs.org (Beheaded Sacrifice) wrote in message news:<_nFDc.20464$E84.10804@edtnps89>...
 > In article <8d9826c7.0406270231.1c894312.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>,
 > e_nihilist.DeleteThis@yahoo.com says...
  > >
  > >Magick isn't necessarily about becoming rich. I think magick is about
  > >becoming the best person you can be;
 >
 > so it's christianity for people who want to pretend to be cool and
 > interesting?

Certainly.

Becoming cool and interesting can be a magical goal. This goal is easy
to accomplish if you're willing to observe your thoughts, words, and
deeds. It also helps to study the lives of cool and interesting
people.

Looking through my magick diary, I see that I first wrote down this
particular goal in June of last year. The diary entries indicate a
gradual change taking place in my consciousness, up to the point where
I declared the work a success.


  > >Occasionally people ask, "Nihilist, how do we become magicians?" What
  > >I do is help them realize that they're already magicians; they've been
  > >magicians from an early age. To drive my point home, I direct them to
  > >keep their left legs rigid... distribute weight to their right feet...
  > >and swing their left legs back and forth like a pendulum.
  > >
 >
 > tell them to do the hokey pokey and turn themselves around, because THATS what
 > it's all about.

People would feel ridiculous doing the hokey pokey. That's why I offer
my exercise. If they just focus on swinging their left legs back and
forth--slowly--a certain realization may occur. It's possible to
rediscover wonder and to feel empowered to cause changes. And that, my
friends, is what this Great Art is all about.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

catherine yronwode <cat.RemoveThis@luckymojo.com> wrote in message news:<40DF430C.A19567F6.RemoveThis@luckymojo.com>...
 > Nihilist wrote:
  > >
  > > catherine yronwode <cat.RemoveThis@luckymojo.com> wrote \
  > >
   > > > i am asking "If someone is a creative person -- script-writer,
   > > > artist, screenwriter, magician, author, lecturer, teacher,
   > > > magister templi, art car artist, root doctor --
  > >
  > > That's you, isn't it?
 >
 > Some, not all of me, and some not of me at all. I've never
 > written a screen play.

Hardly lost ground. You're still a magister templi.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

"catherine yronwode" <cat.RemoveThis@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:40DDF528.593F83FF@luckymojo.com...
 > I had a dream last night that siva and i were visiting some
 > folks we know from the art car world (we have never been to
 > their home in real life, only met them at various Bay Area
 > art car events over the past several years). In the dream i
 > was disappointed that they lived in a suburban style tract
 > home in the South Bay (i have no idea where they live in
 > real life, of course).
 >
 > In describing the dream to siva this morning, i realized
 > that this sense of confused disappointment over where
 > creative people live has occured to me several times in real
 > life in relation to people i know through the comic book
 > industry, through art and artisanry connections, and through
 > the magical community.
 >
 > In every case the people in question projected a complex and
 > fascinating print / screen / art / party persona as comic
 > book creators or art car artisans or magicians but were
 > either found to live in a dull, nondescript tract house on a
 > block of similar homes in an area with few mature trees or
 > in an apartment block in the midst of many other apartment
 > blocks with no access to nature. The flatness of the land
 > may be a factor too -- The South Bay tract home flats are my
 > prime local example, but you can fill in the blank as you
 > please, considering your locale -- the flats around Queens
 > and Brooklyn with those endless rows of apartment block
 > fulfill the same criterion. The effect is one of a
 > "Matrix"-like vista of endless small, niche-like human
 > cages.
 >
 > My disappointment has nothing to do with the presumed
 > financial status or economic attainment of the comics
 > creators or mages who live in these places, for i have been
 > vastly inspired by visiting folks who live in
 > poverty-blighted inner city walk-ups or in rural farm
 > squalor -- no, it is the deadly dullness, the cubicle-like
 > regularity of the housing plan, with the postage-stamp front
 > lawn and the inevitably fenced back yard that disappoints.
 > How could an anrtist, mage, conscious being select such a
 > middle-of-the-road neighborhood, cut off from the best that
 > nature offers (vistas, wildness, beauty) and the best that
 > human invention offers (elaborate architecture, parks,
 > gardens)?
 >
 > I realize that this viewpoint springs from my own intensely
 > aesthetic orientation. I realize that it is neither
 > transferrable as a meme nor will it be easily understood by
 > many. Those who know where and how i live will understand
 > better than others what i am taling about. Some whom i have
 > visited, like Poke Runyon, probably even share my feelings
 > in the matter, if i may judge by how and where they live.
 >
 > I bring this forward today because there has been some
 > recent talk about what exactly constitutes magical
 > attainment. The trolls perpetually ask, "If magic works, why
 > aren't you all rich?" This is not about wealth, though.
 > Wealth is only a marker of one kind of aspiration. Realizing
 > that riches may not be everyone's goal, i am asking "If
 > someone is a creative person -- script-writer, artist,
 > screenwriter, magician, author, lecturer, teacher, magister
 > templi, art car artist, root doctor -- why would he or she
 > dwell in the prefabricated, repetitive housing units of the
 > Matrix?"
 >
 > cat yronwode
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTD: In America artists have no choice. You can use your time to wage war
against fascism to secure a niche in time to practice your art or you can
sell out and do things for fascists like Serge Lifar and practically
everyone in Hollywood and in exchange get a nice place to live depending
upon the worth of your deeds to and for them.
I live in a small two story house that was built in 1924. I practice in a
house located in the back yard that was built in (x) 1947 and was forced to
purchase a veritable shithole to the immediate South that was occupied by 5
pitbulls, one girl and 5 skinheads and I'm now being harassed by the Village
for "apparent zoning violations" and generally treated like a Jew in a Nazi
ghetto
It's called American.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

"catherine yronwode" <cat.TakeThisOut@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:40DDF528.593F83FF@luckymojo.com...
 > I had a dream last night that siva and i were visiting some
 > folks we know from the art car world (we have never been to
 > their home in real life, only met them at various Bay Area
 > art car events over the past several years). In the dream i
 > was disappointed that they lived in a suburban style tract
 > home in the South Bay (i have no idea where they live in
 > real life, of course).
 >
 > In describing the dream to siva this morning, i realized
 > that this sense of confused disappointment over where
 > creative people live has occured to me several times in real
 > life in relation to people i know through the comic book
 > industry, through art and artisanry connections, and through
 > the magical community.
 >
 > In every case the people in question projected a complex and
 > fascinating print / screen / art / party persona as comic
 > book creators or art car artisans or magicians but were
 > either found to live in a dull, nondescript tract house on a
 > block of similar homes in an area with few mature trees or
 > in an apartment block in the midst of many other apartment
 > blocks with no access to nature. The flatness of the land
 > may be a factor too -- The South Bay tract home flats are my
 > prime local example, but you can fill in the blank as you
 > please, considering your locale -- the flats around Queens
 > and Brooklyn with those endless rows of apartment block
 > fulfill the same criterion. The effect is one of a
 > "Matrix"-like vista of endless small, niche-like human
 > cages.
 >
 > My disappointment has nothing to do with the presumed
 > financial status or economic attainment of the comics
 > creators or mages who live in these places, for i have been
 > vastly inspired by visiting folks who live in
 > poverty-blighted inner city walk-ups or in rural farm
 > squalor -- no, it is the deadly dullness, the cubicle-like
 > regularity of the housing plan, with the postage-stamp front
 > lawn and the inevitably fenced back yard that disappoints.
 > How could an anrtist, mage, conscious being select such a
 > middle-of-the-road neighborhood, cut off from the best that
 > nature offers (vistas, wildness, beauty) and the best that
 > human invention offers (elaborate architecture, parks,
 > gardens)?
 >
 > I realize that this viewpoint springs from my own intensely
 > aesthetic orientation. I realize that it is neither
 > transferrable as a meme nor will it be easily understood by
 > many. Those who know where and how i live will understand
 > better than others what i am taling about. Some whom i have
 > visited, like Poke Runyon, probably even share my feelings
 > in the matter, if i may judge by how and where they live.
 >
 > I bring this forward today because there has been some
 > recent talk about what exactly constitutes magical
 > attainment. The trolls perpetually ask, "If magic works, why
 > aren't you all rich?" This is not about wealth, though.
 > Wealth is only a marker of one kind of aspiration. Realizing
 > that riches may not be everyone's goal, i am asking "If
 > someone is a creative person -- script-writer, artist,
 > screenwriter, magician, author, lecturer, teacher, magister
 > templi, art car artist, root doctor -- why would he or she
 > dwell in the prefabricated, repetitive housing units of the
 > Matrix?"
 >

I never had a problem with living in the city, Pittsburgh is one
of the greenest cities in these United States. When I was a kid,
I spent *plenty* of time in the *nearby* woods in both of the
neighborhoods I lived in, the 2nd having lots of fruit plants.
(We had a peach tree in our yard, next door was an apple tree,
and five doors down they had a *huge* garden. Meanwhile, grapes,
blackberries, raspberries, elderberries, mulberries, cherries and so
on grew wild.) And now, though there is a lot of concrete and asphalt,
where I live, two parks are within walking distance. One park holds the zoo
and aquarium,
and the other has a public contemporary, progressive, teaching art gallery.

You must have caught some vibes 'cause they just put a waterfall in the
fish & turtle pond at work and I'm impressed.
If you're lurking guys(and gals)-- way to go!!!
***HIGH|s+m+a+c+k|FIVE***

 > cat yronwode


--
meltdarok
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/" target="_blank">http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

In article <8d9826c7.0406280135.6f20949c RemoveThis @posting.google.com>,
e_nihilist RemoveThis @yahoo.com says...
 >
 > If they just focus on swinging their left legs back and
 >forth--slowly--a certain realization may occur.

and if it doesnt that means the leg swinger is a muggle. I dont want to be a
muggle so I will have a realization.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

Meltdarok wrote:

 > I never had a problem with living in the city, Pittsburgh is one
 > of the greenest cities in these United States.

Hey, are you familiar with a store called LaHaven Village and the woman
who runs it, Dr. Angel Cartwright? I have never been there (i haven't
been to Pittsburgh PA in 25 years), but i met Mambo Angel recently
through the net, and we had a long telephone conversation. Her store
sounds like a cool and multicultural place -- African American spiritual
supplies, African-Caribbean religious goods, New Age materials,
Ayurvedic medicines, Feng Shui goods, and more. Since you are in the
same city, if you haven't been there, do check it out and let me know
what it's like. It's
LaHaven Village Healing Sanctuary
1015 Wood St
Pittsburgh, Pa 15221
(Near East End Food Co-op)
412-244-9446<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: dwelling place as a marker of ... ? 

"catherine yronwode" <cat.TakeThisOut@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:40E28D14.8B2EC2C2@luckymojo.com...
 > Meltdarok wrote:
 >
  > > I never had a problem with living in the city, Pittsburgh is one
  > > of the greenest cities in these United States.
 >
 > Hey, are you familiar with a store called LaHaven Village and the woman
 > who runs it, Dr. Angel Cartwright? I have never been there (i haven't
 > been to Pittsburgh PA in 25 years), but i met Mambo Angel recently
 > through the net, and we had a long telephone conversation. Her store
 > sounds like a cool and multicultural place -- African American spiritual
 > supplies, African-Caribbean religious goods, New Age materials,
 > Ayurvedic medicines, Feng Shui goods, and more. Since you are in the
 > same city, if you haven't been there, do check it out and let me know
 > what it's like. It's
 > LaHaven Village Healing Sanctuary
 > 1015 Wood St
 > Pittsburgh, Pa 15221
 > (Near East End Food Co-op)
 > 412-244-9446

No I haven't been there yet, was just in Wilkinsburg last Friday, I
could've
stopped by then. I'll make a trip back there and check it out for sure.

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meltdarok
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