Dirty torquer

"Steve W." <csr684NOT RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in news:g2rs9b$qn7$1@aioe.org:

> Tegger wrote:
>> Built_Well <Built_Well_Toyota RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:beb0ca46-5919-
>> 486f-af23-fc655c16b996 RemoveThis @27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Forgot to mention that, while at Sears lookin' for a 21mm
>>> socket for the Craftsman 1/2-inch torque wrench, I spoke
>>> to a salesperson who said it's best to keep those torque
>>> wrenches set at 20 foot-pounds when not in use, instead of
>>> zero or 5 foot-pounds. He said some folks have had to
>>> return those torquers because they stopped working after
>>> having been set at their very lowest setting during storage.
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem happens when you dial the wrench down all the way, but
>> than keep going so as to undo the 11mm calibration nut inside the
>> handle. Once that nut comes loose, the calibration is shot. And these
>> wrenches are cheap enough that having them recalibrated is not
>> economic.
>>
>> You MUST dial them ALL the way back down for storage. Failure to do
>> so puts load on the spring inside, which eventually causes it to take
>> a "set", which ALSO throws off the calibration.
>>
>> The answer is to dial it down to 20 ft lbs, then keep going SLOWLY
>> and GENTLY until you feel the handle bottom out.
>>
>> I wrecked my first Craftsman torque wrench by dialing it down too
>> vigorously so the nut came loose. Then I took it apart to see how it
>> worked. See here for that story:
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/torque_wrench/index.html
>>
>>
>>
> And if this does happen you just need to pop the cap off the handgrip.
> Use an allen wrench to hold the inner shaft and take the grip
> retaining nut out. Now grab a beam style wrench and a 3/8" square 1/2"
> drive socket. Hook the two wrenches face to face with the socket. Now
> use the beam wrench to apply torque to the clicker. Watch the scale
> and read the number when the click type actually clicks. That gives
> you a starting torque. Now use the allen wrench to adjust the clicker
> to a reading halfway between min/max. Keep testing the wrench as you
> adjust it.
>
> Once you get it to reliably click at the halfway point, stop. Now slip
> the handle on and make sure the nut sets into it's recess. Now turn it
> so the scale reads the same as your set point. Now slip the handle
> back off and apply some thread locker to the nut/shaft. Put the hand
> grip back on and once your sure the thread locker is set install the
> locknut while holding the shaft with the allen wrench. Tighten it down
> with some thread locker on it. reinstall the cap and your wrench
> should be very close to correct.
>


You mean sort of like this...?
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/torque_wrench_comparing_1.jpg
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/torque_wrench_comparing_2.jpg

I found there was considerable variance in the beam reading when the
click occurred, well above the 4% tolerance the clicker was rated for.

And in case you're wondering, the shaft of the clicker was not even
slightly distorted by the vise. I miked it before and after, in several
locations.

--
Tegger
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

jor <jor RemoveThis @jor.com> wrote in news:2008061210142616807-jor@jorcom:

> <snip>
> I wrecked my first Craftsman torque wrench by dialing it down too
>> vigorously so the nut came loose. Then I took it apart to see how it
>> worked. See here for that story:
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/torque_wrench/index.html
>
> Hey, Tegger. That is a well done and informative article. Thanks. Got
> any more?



Any more what?



--
Tegger
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

On 2008-06-12 18:36:43 -0700, Tegger <tegger RemoveThis @tegger.c0m> said:

> jor <jor RemoveThis @jor.com> wrote in news:2008061210142616807-jor@jorcom:
>
>> <snip>
>> I wrecked my first Craftsman torque wrench by dialing it down too
>>> vigorously so the nut came loose. Then I took it apart to see how it
>>> worked. See here for that story:
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/torque_wrench/index.html
>>
>> Hey, Tegger. That is a well done and informative article. Thanks. Got
>> any more?
>
>
>
> Any more what?

Any more nifty write-ups!
jor
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

Ray O wrote:
> "Bill Putney" <bptn RemoveThis @kinez.net> wrote in message
> news:6bccc5F3a1ui2U4@mid.individual.net...
>> Ray O wrote:
>>
>>> ...While you are shopping for tools, get a 6 inch machinist's metric
>>> scale. It looks like a ruler made out of sheet metal with a sliding
>>> pocket clip. When you rotate your tires, use the scale to measure brake
>>> lining thickness. If lining thickness is 2 mm or less, they need
>>> replacement.
>> Real men don't need the scale. My eyeballs are calibrated.
>>
>> Bill Putney
>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
>> with the letter 'x')
>
> I generally don't measure either because I can no longer read the fine print
> on my machinist's scale without glasses. If I'm doing someone else's car
> and they're standing there watching, I turn it into a learning experience
> and have the owner measure and read me the results - it looks better if you
> measure when someone is watching.

A state inspection station here got its license pulled because the
inspector failed my car because he failed it for brake pads even after I
had him measure them and prove to himself that they were over twice the
legal minimum limit. That felt good.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

Ray O wrote:
> "Bill Putney" <bptn.TakeThisOut@kinez.net> wrote in message
> news:6bcclrF3a1ui2U5@mid.individual.net...
>> Bill Putney wrote:
>>> Ray O wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...While you are shopping for tools, get a 6 inch machinist's metric
>>>> scale. It looks like a ruler made out of sheet metal with a sliding
>>>> pocket clip. When you rotate your tires, use the scale to measure brake
>>>> lining thickness. If lining thickness is 2 mm or less, they need
>>>> replacement.
>>> Real men don't need the scale. My eyeballs are calibrated.
>> Oh - also, if the pads are getting anywhere near close to the safe limit,
>> it's important to look at the margin all the way around the pad in case
>> they are wearing out of plane and are thinner in the places that are less
>> readily visible/measurable.
>>
>> Bill Putney
>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
>> with the letter 'x')
>
> Also, if the pads are wearing unevenly, make sure the caliper slides are not
> binding.

True. But there is always some degree of tilt.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

Ray O wrote:
> "mack" <mackerel.TakeThisOut@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
> news:z6d4k.124$BF4.85@fe087.usenetserver.com...
>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message >
>>
>> When you need a warranty replacement on a Craftsman tool, you can take it
>> to
>>> a Sears store and get it exchanged on the spot. Does Autozone handle
>>> warranty replacements or do you have to mail the tool to the
>>> manufacturer?
>>>
>> Ray's statement reminded me of an old joke my father in law delighted in
>> telling. In the "olden" days, Sears had a lifetime warranty on all
>> their goods, which meant that if you were ever disappointed in the
>> performance of the item, you could get it replaced under their warranty.
>> So an old farmer went to Sears with a paper bag, and told the clerk he
>> wanted a spare tire cover replaced.
>> He said "I bought this tire cover for my Model A a couple of years ago and
>> there didn't seem to be anything wrong with it, but yesterday I had a
>> blowout and put on the spare tire, and that durned cover didn't last half
>> a mile!" ...as he pulled a shredded tire cover out of the paper bag.
>
> I designed the shed in our back yard to sit on posts because the spot where
> I wanted it was on a slight slope. I started digging the post holes with a
> clamshell type post hole digger, got down about a foot, and decided to go
> out and rent a power post hole digger. One of the neighborhood kids stopped
> by and asked if he could dig, so I told him he could try and left my
> Craftsman measuring tape so he would know when the hole was 3 feet deep. I
> left to rent the power post hole digger after telling him that he could quit
> whenever he wanted to.
>
> He was gone when I returned about an hour later with the post hole digger,
> so fired up the engine, stuck the auger into the hole I had started, and
> started boring the hole. What looked like shiny pieces of metal started
> coming out of the hole along with the dirt so I stopped the auger, pulled it
> out, and found that what was left of my measuring tape was at the bottom of
> the hole. The outer case was shattered and the tape was welded in the
> coiled position. I took the pieces to Sears and they gave me a new one!

LOL!

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

Yesterday, I rotated and torqued the tires for the first time ever.
....And checked the brakes. Having the Camry up on 4 jack stands
was neat to see. I did it all in a municipal public parking garage
that had a very flat, smooth, concrete surface. The ground
vibrations you feel inside some parking garages when a car drives
by was minimal or nonexistent in this garage.

The car was rock-steady on those 4 stands. I tested the setup by
pushing and rocking the car around a little bit before I went
underneath. The car was very firm and steady.

The Sears Craftsman torque wrench (model 44595) worked wonderfully.
I first torqued all lug nuts to 40 foot-pounds, then 60, and finally
the specified torque of 76. Since the car appeared to be so steady
on this flat parking garage surface, I tightened the rear wheels
to their final torque of 76 while the car was still on stands. It
was impossible to torque the front wheels while on stands because
the front wheels freely moved forwards and backwards, I guess
because the Camry is front-wheel drive. But the rear wheels
didn't move, so torquing them was easy while on stands.

Instead of following the Camry manual's instruction of tightening
the lug nuts finger-tight while the car is on stands, I followed
_Auto Upkeep's_ instruction and snugged the front wheels just a
little bit extra with a lug wrench. I also didn't lower the car
commpletely before applying final torque with the torque wrench,
like the Camry manual suggests. I decided to follow _Auto
Upkeep's_ direction and lowered the car until the wheels were
just barely touching the ground, then tightened the front wheels
to final torque with the torque wrench. Again, I torqued each
wheel's nuts gradually: first all 40, then 60, and finally 76.
The click on the torquer sure is a wonderful feature.

To backtrack a bit to an earlier step, I felt that some of the
lug nuts were on extra tight. It took some muscle to loosen some
of 'em with the 20-inch-long, 4-way lug wrench. So I decided to
check the torque on the last wheel before loosening its lug nuts.
I first set the Craftsman at 76 and it clicked without allowing
any easy tightening. So I next tried 84 foot-pounds, and it
clicked. So I tried 92 and it clicked! Finally I set the wrench
to 120 foot-pounds, and it still clicked without my tightening the
lug nut at all! The manual's spec. is 76 foot-pounds of torque on
the '06 Camry's lug nuts. So a couple nuts on the last wheel that
I experimented with were on at least to 120 foot-pounds, and of
course, possibly even tighter, since I stopped checking at 120.

I guess that's another reason to do your own work, if you can.
The last person to tighten the car's nuts was the Toyota
dealership's technician 5,000 miles ago. And you'll recall that
he didn't use a proper torque wrench to do the tightening; he used
some kind of automatic/electrical, small silver ratchet that didn't
look like an impact wrench since it wasn't shaped like a drill, but
instead shaped like a thin ratchet. It looked like it may have been
attached to a possible extension bar (possibly a torque-limiting
stick). Anyway, I guess it's a case of doing a job yourself if
you want it done right. /Or is he not to blame?/ Is it possible
that the lug nuts somehow tightened themselves from the
specification of 76 to 120-plus foot-pounds during the last 5,000
miles of driving?

Some of those lug nuts let out a really loud screetch when
I untightened them.

I guess I'll see after the next 5,000 miles if lug nuts can
tighten themselves, because I carefully torqued each one
yesterday to 76.
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

E Meyer wrote:
>
> Did you check the mating surfaces and threads for corrosion
> & damage before you put it back together? If not, I suspect
> you will find that they will be tighter than 76 when you try
> to get them off, & the longer you wait the tighter they'll be.
========


Yes, I carefully examined the mating surfaces of both the
hubs and the wheels. Very, very little rust on the hubs and
close to none on the wheels. The white-looking hubs did
show some black scuff marks where the inner wheels mated
with them, but that's about it. The black-colored inner
wheel mating surfaces were scuffed a bit, too, but the
scuffs took on a shinier, bare metal appearance. Just
about no brown rust where the wheels and hubs mate.
It all looked pretty good to me.

I would just recommend folks request their Toyota dealer's
techs to use a proper torque wrench, as Retired VIP once
wrote many months ago--I think it was he.

The techs at Sears, Walmart, and Big O tires all use
torque wrenches. By the way, when I visited Big O Tires
a couple days ago to look at how they handled their
torquers, I was surprised by how dirty they keep their
work areas. Yow, woah, it's like a pig sty in there.
By contrast, the automotive work area at Walmart was
really clean--maybe because they have a woman working
back there who knows the value of cleanliness, or maybe
it's just a Walmart policy--dunno.
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

On 6/13/08 12:23 PM, in article
82674cf8-73d2-4acb-a41e-0e14848a292e RemoveThis @w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com,
"Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Yesterday, I rotated and torqued the tires for the first time ever.
> ...And checked the brakes. Having the Camry up on 4 jack stands
>
> was neat to see. I did it all in a municipal public parking garage
> that had a very flat, smooth, concrete surface. The ground
> vibrations you feel inside some parking garages when a car drives
> by was minimal or nonexistent in this garage.
>
> The car was rock-steady on those 4 stands. I tested the setup by
> pushing and rocking the car around a little bit before I went
> underneath. The car was very firm and steady.
>
> The Sears Craftsman torque wrench (model 44595) worked wonderfully.
> I first torqued all lug nuts to 40 foot-pounds, then 60, and finally
> the specified torque of 76. Since the car appeared to be so steady
> on this flat parking garage surface, I tightened the rear wheels
> to their final torque of 76 while the car was still on stands. It
> was impossible to torque the front wheels while on stands because
> the front wheels freely moved forwards and backwards, I guess
> because the Camry is front-wheel drive. But the rear wheels
> didn't move, so torquing them was easy while on stands.
>
> Instead of following the Camry manual's instruction of tightening
> the lug nuts finger-tight while the car is on stands, I followed
> _Auto Upkeep's_ instruction and snugged the front wheels just a
> little bit extra with a lug wrench. I also didn't lower the car
> commpletely before applying final torque with the torque wrench,
> like the Camry manual suggests. I decided to follow _Auto
> Upkeep's_ direction and lowered the car until the wheels were
> just barely touching the ground, then tightened the front wheels
> to final torque with the torque wrench. Again, I torqued each
> wheel's nuts gradually: first all 40, then 60, and finally 76.
> The click on the torquer sure is a wonderful feature.
>
> To backtrack a bit to an earlier step, I felt that some of the
> lug nuts were on extra tight. It took some muscle to loosen some
> of 'em with the 20-inch-long, 4-way lug wrench. So I decided to
> check the torque on the last wheel before loosening its lug nuts.
> I first set the Craftsman at 76 and it clicked without allowing
> any easy tightening. So I next tried 84 foot-pounds, and it
> clicked. So I tried 92 and it clicked! Finally I set the wrench
> to 120 foot-pounds, and it still clicked without my tightening the
> lug nut at all! The manual's spec. is 76 foot-pounds of torque on
> the '06 Camry's lug nuts. So a couple nuts on the last wheel that
> I experimented with were on at least to 120 foot-pounds, and of
> course, possibly even tighter, since I stopped checking at 120.
>

Doesn't necessarily mean they were incorrectly tightened (though 120 ft-lb
is a little over the edge). There are a number of reasons (corrosion,
metals welding themselves together, rough edges, etc.) that bolts that were
correctly torqued will take a greater force to remove after they have been
in place for a while. Ask anyone who has ever tried to remove a Honda
crankshaft bolt. They go on at 180 lb-ft. They come off at about 400.

> I guess that's another reason to do your own work, if you can.
> The last person to tighten the car's nuts was the Toyota
> dealership's technician 5,000 miles ago. And you'll recall that
> he didn't use a proper torque wrench to do the tightening; he used
> some kind of automatic/electrical, small silver ratchet that didn't
> look like an impact wrench since it wasn't shaped like a drill, but
> instead shaped like a thin ratchet. It looked like it may have been
> attached to a possible extension bar (possibly a torque-limiting
> stick). Anyway, I guess it's a case of doing a job yourself if
> you want it done right. /Or is he not to blame?/ Is it possible
> that the lug nuts somehow tightened themselves from the
> specification of 76 to 120-plus foot-pounds during the last 5,000
> miles of driving?
>
> Some of those lug nuts let out a really loud screetch when
> I untightened them.
>
> I guess I'll see after the next 5,000 miles if lug nuts can
> tighten themselves, because I carefully torqued each one
> yesterday to 76.


Did you check the mating surfaces and threads for corrosion & damage before
you put it back together? If not, I suspect you will find that they will be
tighter than 76 when you try to get them off, & the longer you wait the
tighter they'll be.
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

Tegger wrote:
>
> If your lug nuts emitted a "screech" when you loosened them,
> then there was rust somewhere on the mating surfaces. Either
> the nuts have not been disturbed for a very long time, or
> they were installed when wet.

Some of the lug nuts were easier to loosen than others. I'd say
about a third of the 20 threaded studs and nuts let out a screech
upon loosening. So maybe a third may have been subjected to a
little rust.

I can't say if the rust was a result of the studs and nuts not
being disturbed for a long time, because the wheels were
rotated only about 8 months ago, by the Toyota dealer tech.
It took me about 8 months to add 5,000 miles.

Just wanted to add to my previous post that the brake pads
of the disc brakes looked good. They measured 3/8 of an
inch in thickness. If the metal frame in included, 4/8 inch.
And no cracking in the rubbery brake lines was seen.

Sears has a newer model of the Microtork 44595. The 4459*7*
has a range from 25 foot-pounds to 250 foot-pounds compared
to 20 - 150 for the 44595. The *7* model runs $40 more:
$120 but it's currently on sale for $100.
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

Built_Well <Built_Well_Toyota.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in news:82674cf8-73d2-
4acb-a41e-0e14848a292e.DeleteThis@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com:


>
> I guess I'll see after the next 5,000 miles if lug nuts can
> tighten themselves, because I carefully torqued each one
> yesterday to 76.
>


Fasteners do NOT "tighten themselves". If they should move at all, they
will loosen.

If fasteners appear to tighten after installation, it's primarily due to a
well-known phenomenon known as "embedment". Embedment occurs when the
surface textures of a fastener's threads and its receiving threads come
into closer mesh through vibration and heat cycling. Embedment can lead to
the need for two to three times tightening torque when loosening.

If your lug nuts emitted a "screech" when you loosened them, then there was
rust somewhere on the mating surfaces. Either the nuts have not been
disturbed for a very long time, or they were installed when wet.



--
Tegger
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

jor <jor DeleteThis @jor.com> wrote in news:2008061306324375249-jor@jorcom:

> On 2008-06-12 18:36:43 -0700, Tegger <tegger DeleteThis @tegger.c0m> said:
>
>> jor <jor DeleteThis @jor.com> wrote in news:2008061210142616807-jor@jorcom:
>>
>>> <snip>
>>> I wrecked my first Craftsman torque wrench by dialing it down too
>>>> vigorously so the nut came loose. Then I took it apart to see how it
>>>> worked. See here for that story:
>>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/torque_wrench/index.html
>>>
>>> Hey, Tegger. That is a well done and informative article. Thanks. Got
>>> any more?
>>
>>
>>
>> Any more what?
>
> Any more nifty write-ups!
> jor
>
>


Check the site. There are a few. I have several sets of photos for other
writeups on other subjects that I haven't done due to lack of time.

--
Tegger
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer 

The '06 Camry's rear drum brakes were exceptionally clean of rust.
I mean I don't remember seeing even a hint of rust on those drums,
and I've seen lots of drum brakes on cars that were loaded with
rust. The dark grey color of the rear drums and hubs almost
didn't even look metallic, they were so clean.

There was some rust on the front disc brakes and hubs, but it was
very minimal. If I were to apply anti-seize next time on the
face of the front hubs, will that arrest the small amount of rust
that is already there? The front hubs were mostly white in color,
except for a couple small spots where the rust is found.

The twenty studs looked to be in good shape, except for one that
had some shavings at its free end. Once untightened, the twenty
nuts all screwed off easily by hand except for one that gave me a
little bit of trouble as it came close to the free end of the stud.
I think I had to use the lug wrench to undo that one near the end.

The CV boots were in great shape, and the rotors showed absolutely
no grooves. I remember I once had to replace the CV boots on the
'95 Tercel, probably around the year 2002 or so. One shop in town
was only charging $80 for parts and labor.

Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there!
 >> Stay informed about: Dirty torquer