Hyundai preformance on icy raods

External Since: Mar 01, 2007 Posts: 40

Matt Whiting wrote:
> jp103 wrote:
>
> Is this Brian under an assumed name?

No it's just that AWD is NOT the solution to better winter driving.

If you read the OP he says a couple of things that should have been the
logical extension of this thread.

1)"The vehicle has never behaved badly on snowy roads, or slushy roads,
just ice." And then goes on about how the front end is heavy so in his
estimation the car should be better on ice. This is one point of
discussion - should a car that is front-end heavy be better on ice (my
response is no why would you expect more mass to be better than less
when the coefficient of friction is less?)
2)"Anybody out there have similar experience with Hyundai and ice?"
I don't think there were many answers to this
3)"I run my tires high (35-40 psi), would lowering that help?" Was there
any response to this?

I'm not going to get into your and Brian agreement to disagree. All I
am saying is that for all-around winter driving where snow and ice are
more than an occasional occurrence winter tires make a difference. Your
post that I responded to even said the same "For maximum traction, equip
it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a set
of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four wheels
for balanced handling." Of course this didn't seem to make an
impression on you so you needed to add "The only thing they left out is
that all-season tires also suffice in most areas of the country." Well
excuse me but we really aren't talking about most areas of the country.
I thought that the discussion was about areas of the country with snow
and ice conditions where WINTER (my emphasis) tires do make a difference
that even your supporting quotes seem to say. Just because you perceive
that someone is siding with Brian does not mean that it is Brian under
an assumed name.

External Since: May 17, 2005 Posts: 436

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>>>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>>>> Darby OGill wrote:
>>>>>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping
>>>>>> an extra set
>>>>>>> of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And
>>>>>>> accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper
>>>>>>> Michigan where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the
>>>>>>> rest of the state.
>>>>>> I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother
>>>>>> used to say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank
>>>>>> full as it does empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap
>>>>>> steel wheels, it doesn't cost any more to employ them. Miles put
>>>>>> on snows are miles not put on regular tires....BTW how many of us
>>>>>> use summer tires as opposed to all season radials, and is anyone
>>>>>> troiubled by that performance compromise (wet weather, braking and
>>>>>> handling). There, I'm done beating the dead horse<grin>.....I
>>>>>> guess the group does largely agree on one thing- The OP faulting
>>>>>> Hyundai is mostly without merit.(I think the touchy throttle
>>>>>> observation was a good one though)
>>>>>
>>>>> And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much faster
>>>>> than an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow tire
>>>>> is more costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire.
>>>>
>>>> That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30
>>>> years, you have nothing to base that conclusion on.
>>>
>>> It simply is true:
>>>
>>> http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tires-auto-parts/tires/tire-so...r-winte
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.consumersearch.com/www/automotive/snow-tires/review.html
>>
>> Did you even read either of these articles??? Here's the first
>> paragraph from the second one:
>
> Yes, I read them both.
>
>
>> "Even if your car has traction control or an ABS braking system, those
>> features won't improve traction on snow and ice. Experts at The Tire
>> Rack say only snow tires will actually improve grip on snow and ice.
>> Although all-wheel-drive or front-wheel-drive is an advantage, you'll
>> still improve safety by swapping your summer or all-season tires for
>> winter ones. This is because snow tires have special tread designs
>> that help them bite into the snow. Snow tires also use a softer rubber
>> compound, so they stay flexible at lower temperatures."
>>
>> That certainly doesn't support your anti-winter tire assertions.
>
> I've never made an anti-winter tire assertion. I'm not against them,
> I've said they are better than all-season tires in snow and ice, but
> I've also said that all-seasons are more than adequate for my needs and
> thus I don't need winter tires.

Fair enough, but you certainly are going out of your way to rationalize
that decision and discourage others from trying winter tires.

>>> Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason.
>>
>> They lack a tread wear rating because they're not designed for
>> year-round use.
>
> And because they wear so quickly consumers would be shocked at the numbers.

More BS from you, Matt? My tires are wearing quite slowly. Please do
explain why so we can all be enlightened.

>>> I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years,
>>> but I do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster
>>> than all-season tires.
>>
>> On your truck I can believe it, but on cars it's not true, at least
>> not in the absolute terms you proclaim. I can give you a perfect
>> example, the tires on my Elantra. The car is an '04 and I've driven
>> both sets of tires for four seasons (the winter season isn't over yet,
>> but it's close enough). My summer tires - the stock Michelins that
>> came on the car - are completely worn out and must be replaced.
>> Actually, they really should have been replaced before last season,
>> but they just passed inspection. In contrast, my winter tires still
>> have 2/3 of their original depth. They will last at least another
>> season and perhaps two.
>
> Tires wear by the mile not by the season.

Gee, no kidding? If it makes you feel any better, I drive the same
distances year round, in the same manner and mostly highway miles. I
typically use my summer tires ~20% more than my winter tires, which is
nowhere near enough to explain the increased wear. Your blanket
statement about tire wear is obviously, blatantly false, but you
apparently can't deal with being wrong.

>>> Winter tire design and
>>>> rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that
>>>> they use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires",
>>>> they're quite durable in the colder winter temperatures they're
>>>> designed for. They're often MORE durable that typical soft summer
>>>> "performance" compounds. My winter tires last at least as many
>>>> seasons as my summer tires and they typically cost less. Once you
>>>> amortize the cost of the extra set of wheels, it's all gravy (I had
>>>> one set of wheels that I used on four cars between '84 and '04).
>>>> Unless one drives aggressively year-round when on dry pavement,
>>>> there is no significant downside to winter tires. There ARE
>>>> significant safety and performance advantages to them in nasty
>>>> winter conditions. There isn't any inconvenience, either. As Darby
>>>> pointed out, instead of rotating your tires twice per year (which we
>>>> should be doing anyway), you just swap from summers to winters and
>>>> vice versa - rotating them whenever they're reinstalled, of course.
>>>> If making the switch forces people to rotate their tires when they
>>>> might not do it otherwise, their summer tires will last longer and
>>>> they'll actually see some cost saving from it.
>>>
>>> I have no doubt that snow tires will outlast performance summer tires
>>> as they have VERY soft compounds and absolutely lousy tread life.
>>> However, they will not outwear a good all-season tire, not even
>>> close. Post even one credible reference that suggests otherwise.
>>
>> Obviously, you're wrong, as the results on my car prove. I don't need
>> a reference, I have the tires to prove it. If it makes you happy, I'll
>> send you pictures of both. Your argument is simply a fabrication to
>> support your bias against winter tires.
>
> You haven't provided any data to prove anything. You have provided no
> mileages for the life of any tires, just "seasons" which is irrelevant.

See the details above. You're wrong, get over it.

>>>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who
>>>> live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one
>>>> of three things:
>>>>
>>>> - I don't want to
>>>>
>>>> - I don't care
>>>>
>>>> - I'm too cheap
>>>
>>> No, they boil down to "I don't need them." It is as simple as that.
>>>
>>> A question for you, do you drive only all-wheel drive vehicles?
>>
>> Don't change the subject. I've already covered that ground in another
>> post.
>
> You aren't consistent. If you want the best possible performance, then
> you must drive AWD along with your snow tires. If you aren't driving
> AWD vehicles, then you are settling for less than the best.

Please show me where I ever said that I wanted the "best possible
performance". You made that up, which is pretty lame, Matt.

Everything to do with automotive performance is a compromise. When it
comes to dealing with winter conditions, I draw the line at spending
thousands of extra dollars for AWD or 4WD vehicles and thousands more in
increased fuel, insurance and maintenance costs to gain a marginal
improvement in acceleration traction in winter conditions (AWD/4WD does
nothing to improve braking or cornering in slippery conditions). I'm far
more concerned with being able to turn and stop than I am with
accelerating or getting stuck (I've only gotten stuck - briefly - in
snow once in the past 30 years, and that was because I tried to drive
though 18" of it in an un-plowed parking lot). The poor handling and
high center of gravity of many SUVs - particularly those that are truck
based - is arguably more likely to cause an accident than their AWD/4WD
systems are to prevent one. IMO, most SUV drivers would be better off
with a car that inherently handles better, equipped with four winter
tires. The environment would be better off too, but that's another
discussion entirely.

You and I apparently draw the line at different point and that's fine.
However, your fabrication of bogus disadvantages to winter tires in an
effort to justify your position is just plain pathetic.