Hyundai preformance on icy raods

Darby OGill wrote:
>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's a
>>> pretty ridiculous statement.
>> Possibly, but consider how many people who live in the snow belt get along
>> just fine without snow tires. I lived over 60 years in snowy mid-Michigan
>> and never had a need for snow tires. And when front-wheel-drive became
>> common there was even less need for the hassle of changing in and out of
>> snow tires.
> I too haven't run snows in a while, but be real, all seasons really aren't
> good in snow-we've all just like the ease of them.

I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very
good in snow. Not as good as snow tires, no doubt, but good enough for
99.9% of the snow I encounter in a typical winter and I encounter about
5 months worth here in PA.

They aren't the best possible tire in snow, but then I don't need the
best possible tire. I need a tire good enough for my conditions and
that is what my all-season tires are: good enough for my needs.

Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive.
All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every
NEEDS it. Same with snow tires.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Darby OGill wrote:
> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an extra
> set
>> of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And
>> accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper Michigan
>> where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the rest of the
>> state.
> I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother used to
> say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank full as it does
> empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel wheels, it doesn't cost
> any more to employ them. Miles put on snows are miles not put on regular
> tires....BTW how many of us use summer tires as opposed to all season
> radials, and is anyone troiubled by that performance compromise (wet
> weather, braking and handling). There, I'm done beating the dead
> horse<grin>.....I guess the group does largely agree on one thing- The OP
> faulting Hyundai is mostly without merit.(I think the touchy throttle
> observation was a good one though)

Well, your mother was wrong. It DOES cost more to haul around a full
tank of gas! And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much
faster than an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow
tire is more costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire.

No, I'm not bothered by the summer compromises of all-season tires as,
again, I don't need the performance of a performance summer tire. The
only difference I saw between the tires that came on my Sonata and the
tires I have now is that the performance tires wore out in 30K miles
rather than the 50-60K I typically achieve with all-season tires. That
is the performance of most interest to me.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Darby OGill" <darbyogill DeleteThis @net.net> wrote in message
>> There, I'm done beating the dead horse<grin>.....I guess the group does
>> largely agree on one thing- The OP faulting Hyundai is mostly without
>> merit.(I think the touchy throttle observation was a good one though)
>>
>
> Jus in case the horse is not dead.- - - - -
>
> The Sonata 5 speed auto can be manually shifted into 2nd gear for starts on
> slippery roads.

What, your traction control failed?

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

DonC wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" <whiting DeleteThis @epix.net> wrote in message
> news:06Kwj.88$555.1273@news1.epix.net...
>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>> I'm not against snow tires at all, I just don't need them ... like 98%
>>>>> of the rest of the folks in the USA. There are 2% who need them and
>>>>> they should buy and use them.
>>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's a
>>>> pretty ridiculous statement.
>>> Maybe not. Back in the 50's, I remember putting full chains on my
>>> father's car for the first couple of days after a snow. Main roads were
>>> poorly plowed, side streets were not plowed at all. We lived in
>>> Philadelphia and a 6" snow was a lot.
>>>
>>> I've since moved to Connecticut and 10" to 12" is common. I've never
>>> thought about snow tires. Why? They plow frequently, they plow well,
>>> they treat the streets. In the worst storms here, if I can get out of my
>>> driveway, I can get most anyplace. Like anyplace else, you have to use
>>> common sense and slow down in snow. If there is slick ice, no car is
>>> going to fare well, no matter what tire is on it.
>> Well, studded tires help a lot on ice. Although, I haven't felt the
>> need for studs since the 70s.
>>
>> Matt
>
> Studded tires have been banned in some states due to the damage they do to
> roads. I know Michigan banned them. In any case I never got them and never
> really needed them there.

All true, but the fact remains that the statement about "no matter what
tire is on it" is simply false.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

"Darby OGill" <darbyogill RemoveThis @net.net> wrote in message
news:nCQwj.33524$T8.8493@trnddc03...
>
> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an
> extra set
>> of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And
>> accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper Michigan
>> where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the rest of the
>> state.
> I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother used to
> say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank full as it does
> empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel wheels, it doesn't
> cost any more to employ them. Miles put on snows are miles not put on
> regular tires....BTW how many of us use summer tires as opposed to all
> season radials, and is anyone troiubled by that performance compromise
> (wet weather, braking and handling). There, I'm done beating the dead
> horse<grin>.....I guess the group does largely agree on one thing- The OP
> faulting Hyundai is mostly without merit.(I think the touchy throttle
> observation was a good one though)

Okay, so let's say I have a sedan with nice looking mags and a "too full"
garage. Should I buy 4 less than beautiful steel wheels to mount 4 snow
tires when their benefit to me is trivial? I don't have space to store less
than necessary stuff in my garage --- along with the other probably
unnecessary junk I've got there : )

I think that's the mindset of people who live in the climate area I'm
discussing
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting.RemoveThis@epix.net> wrote in message
news:1ESwj.90$555.1325@news1.epix.net...

>
> I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very
> good in snow. Not as good as snow tires, no doubt, but good enough for
> 99.9% of the snow I encounter in a typical winter and I encounter about 5
> months worth here in PA.

That's my point, so I'm happy to echo your words Matt. Here in Central NY,
I've just never encountered the time when I "needed" snow tires. My driving
habits are not impared by a good ASR, and I haven't suffered incoveniences
that would have been avoided with snows. I tend to drive as fast and as
aggressively as conditions permit, and I just expect that winter conditions
can and often do, dictate that those two terms don't mean the same thing
they do in the summer time. Snows would not change that. It's not all
about being able to take off. It's also about being able to stop, avoid,
etc. The marginal benefit that snows would offer in the full spectrum of
winter driving are just lost on me. If I haven't encountered needs for them
in the 30+ years since I last purchased a snow tire, why would I want to put
them on now? They wouldn't change my winter time driving habits, so any
marginal benefit would just be lost. Without a doubt - I fully agree with
your dissention to the previous comment that ASR's are insufficient for
winter use. Touring tires are (IMHO), but there are a lot of very good ASR
tread patterns that are perfectly acceptable for winter use.



> Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive.
> All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every NEEDS
> it. Same with snow tires.
>

Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that since 4WD
will take off better in snow, move through snow better with 7 1/2 feet of
steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push the weight of that snow ahead
of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD must be better in snow. There are
downsides to the confidence that falsely creeps into people's minds when
there are niche benefits to things.

--

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE.RemoveThis@alltel.net
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

DonC wrote:
> "Darby OGill" <darbyogill RemoveThis @net.net> wrote in message
> news:nCQwj.33524$T8.8493@trnddc03...
>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an
>> extra set
>>> of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And
>>> accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper Michigan
>>> where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the rest of the
>>> state.
>> I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother used to
>> say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank full as it does
>> empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel wheels, it doesn't
>> cost any more to employ them. Miles put on snows are miles not put on
>> regular tires....BTW how many of us use summer tires as opposed to all
>> season radials, and is anyone troiubled by that performance compromise
>> (wet weather, braking and handling). There, I'm done beating the dead
>> horse<grin>.....I guess the group does largely agree on one thing- The OP
>> faulting Hyundai is mostly without merit.(I think the touchy throttle
>> observation was a good one though)
>
> Okay, so let's say I have a sedan with nice looking mags and a "too full"
> garage. Should I buy 4 less than beautiful steel wheels to mount 4 snow
> tires when their benefit to me is trivial? I don't have space to store less
> than necessary stuff in my garage --- along with the other probably
> unnecessary junk I've got there : )
>
> I think that's the mindset of people who live in the climate area I'm
> discussing
>
>
If I had a nice set of wheels I would probably buy a set of snows w/
steel wheels for several reasons.
1) I do not drive aggressively enough to worry about the difference in
handling.
2) Here in SE Michigan we have these thing that crop up every winter
called potholes. Hit a large one at speed with your nice wheel and tire
and you could be out almost the cost of a set of winter tires/wheels.
3) The gain in snow driveability that you will gain from a narrower tire
say going from a 255/50/17 to a 225/75/16 (example only) with a winter
specific tread is undeniable. Yes you can drive all winter with all
season tires but if I had the money and drove a lot of miles I defy
anyone, that has had experience with both, to honestly say that on a
snow and/or ice covered road that they will opt for all season over
winter tires .
4) Keeping my nice wheels free of road salt and extending the life of my
"good" tires by five to ten months are also added benefits.

Only you can decide if the benefits are trivial or not. Where you live,
how much snow, what your nice mags and wheels cost, what the road
conditions are and whether you have space to store an extra set are all
considerations that only you can factor in.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

>>
>> Okay, so let's say I have a sedan with nice looking mags and a "too full"
>> garage. Should I buy 4 less than beautiful steel wheels to mount 4 snow
>> tires when their benefit to me is trivial? I don't have space to store
>> less than necessary stuff in my garage --- along with the other probably
>> unnecessary junk I've got there : )
>>
>> I think that's the mindset of people who live in the climate area I'm
>> discussing
> If I had a nice set of wheels I would probably buy a set of snows w/ steel
> wheels for several reasons.
> 1) I do not drive aggressively enough to worry about the difference in
> handling.
> 2) Here in SE Michigan we have these thing that crop up every winter
> called potholes. Hit a large one at speed with your nice wheel and tire
> and you could be out almost the cost of a set of winter tires/wheels.
> 3) The gain in snow driveability that you will gain from a narrower tire
> say going from a 255/50/17 to a 225/75/16 (example only) with a winter
> specific tread is undeniable. Yes you can drive all winter with all
> season tires but if I had the money and drove a lot of miles I defy
> anyone, that has had experience with both, to honestly say that on a snow
> and/or ice covered road that they will opt for all season over winter
> tires .
> 4) Keeping my nice wheels free of road salt and extending the life of my
> "good" tires by five to ten months are also added benefits.
>
> Only you can decide if the benefits are trivial or not. Where you live,
> how much snow, what your nice mags and wheels cost, what the road
> conditions are and whether you have space to store an extra set are all
> considerations that only you can factor in.

And keep in mind that SE Michigan has noticeably less snow than
mid-Michigan. I drove over 45 years on mid-Michigan roads and could never
justify snow tires. And a good part of those years was before
front-while-drive and radial tires were commonplace.

Of course, now that I live in sunny southern Arizona I don't have to even
consider them : )
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting RemoveThis @epix.net> wrote in message
>> Jus in case the horse is not dead.- - - - -
>>
>> The Sonata 5 speed auto can be manually shifted into 2nd gear for starts
>> on slippery roads.
>
> What, your traction control failed?
>
> Matt

The TC works very well. When I pull out of my driveway I make a left up a
hill A few mornings in snow the TC did a very good job but it seems even
better in 2nd.

I've also been able to pass other cars on a hill with the help of TC while
the others were spinning. And that is with 30K on the original tires.
Overall, I'm pleased with the snow performance of the car.

Oh, no, I'm not considering snows. Like you and Mike point out, too much of
a compromise for the rest of my driving.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Darby OGill wrote:
>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an
>> extra set
>>> of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And
>>> accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper
>>> Michigan where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the
>>> rest of the state.
>> I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother
>> used to say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank
>> full as it does empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel
>> wheels, it doesn't cost any more to employ them. Miles put on snows
>> are miles not put on regular tires....BTW how many of us use summer
>> tires as opposed to all season radials, and is anyone troiubled by
>> that performance compromise (wet weather, braking and handling).
>> There, I'm done beating the dead horse<grin>.....I guess the group
>> does largely agree on one thing- The OP faulting Hyundai is mostly
>> without merit.(I think the touchy throttle observation was a good one
>> though)
>
> And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much
> faster than an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow
> tire is more costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire.

That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30 years,
you have nothing to base that conclusion on. Winter tire design and
rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that they
use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires", they're quite
durable in the colder winter temperatures they're designed for. They're
often MORE durable that typical soft summer "performance" compounds. My
winter tires last at least as many seasons as my summer tires and they
typically cost less. Once you amortize the cost of the extra set of
wheels, it's all gravy (I had one set of wheels that I used on four cars
between '84 and '04). Unless one drives aggressively year-round when on
dry pavement, there is no significant downside to winter tires. There
ARE significant safety and performance advantages to them in nasty
winter conditions. There isn't any inconvenience, either. As Darby
pointed out, instead of rotating your tires twice per year (which we
should be doing anyway), you just swap from summers to winters and vice
versa - rotating them whenever they're reinstalled, of course. If making
the switch forces people to rotate their tires when they might not do it
otherwise, their summer tires will last longer and they'll actually see
some cost saving from it.

Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who
live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of
three things:

- I don't want to

- I don't care

- I'm too cheap
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

"Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom.DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:p%zxj.3428$my3.1411@trndny06...
>
> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who live
> in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of three
> things:
>
> - I don't want to
>
> - I don't care
>
> - I'm too cheap

Add "I don't need them to drive safely"

It doesn't "really boil down to ..." your biases.

If I've driven in northern snow for almost 50 years -- many before
front-wheel drive or radial tires -- without any significant problem, none
of things you boiled this down to do not apply. Maybe "I don't need to"
would be a better addition to your list.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Darby OGill wrote:
>>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's
>>>> a pretty ridiculous statement.
>>> Possibly, but consider how many people who live in the snow belt get
>>> along just fine without snow tires. I lived over 60 years in snowy
>>> mid-Michigan and never had a need for snow tires. And when
>>> front-wheel-drive became common there was even less need for the
>>> hassle of changing in and out of snow tires.
>> I too haven't run snows in a while, but be real, all seasons really
>> aren't good in snow-we've all just like the ease of them.
>
> I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very
> good in snow.

You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are
dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as
"all season". As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've
had to use many of them in snow and most of the performance of the tires
on them have range from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright
dangerous". NONE of them have been what I would call good performers in
snow, compared to my winter tires. Keep in mind that all of these cars
have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in good
shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite substantial.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods