Coolant Vanishing: '95 Civic EX 1.6 - Attn Tegger and Techs

E Meyer wrote:
>
>
> On 2/20/08 6:20 AM, in article gWUuj.16648$FK2.1405@trndny08,
> "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Tegger wrote:
>>
>>>"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote in
>>>news:_8Iuj.4853$0%3.3542@trnddc06:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Tony Hwang wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I had the oil changed in November, I was told they had to
>>>>>>> add
>>>>>>>"quite a bit" of coolant to the reservoir. Since the car came from
>>>>>>>NM, with a spotty service record, I had hoped that it was simply
>>>>>>>not topped off ever. Now, three months later, with only moderate
>>>>>>>driving, I see the reservoir is virtually empty again. I don't see
>>>>>>>excessive white smoke in the exhaust, or smell antifreeze in it -
>>>>>>>although I haven't sniffed it specifically for that, yet. The oil
>>>>>>>looks fine. I don't smell coolant inside the car, either. It would
>>>>>>>be hard to spot a slow drip in this wet Winter weather. How common
>>>>>>>are internal head gasket leaks in this engine, as opposed to slow
>>>>>>>leaks in the reservoirs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>First I'd replace the rad. cap and see.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good idea. I didn't realize that pressure leaks were such a common
>>>>>problem. I may have the system pressure-tested if replacing the cap
>>>>>doesn't work. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I took the car to a local shop today. They do free pressure tests
>>>> (I
>>>>gave them $20 anyway). No leaks, including the cap. Unless I'm missing
>>>>something, it has to be the #@!@# head gasket, right? Assuming it's
>>>>going straight to the exhaust and not burning much, how safe is it to
>>>>leave it alone? Any suggestions?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The pressure test needs to be performed in two places.
>>>1) the cooling system, and
>>>2) the combusion chambers.
>>>
>>>the first is done in conjuction with the introduction of UV dye to the
>>>coolant, this being detected on the outside with a black light. The
>>>second consists of shop air being blown into each combustion chamber,
>>>then the rad filler neck being then inspected for bubbles.
>>>
>>>There is a third test that uses special paper test strips dipped into
>>>the rad filler neck. These change color in the presence of combustion
>>>gases in the coolant.
>>
>> The procedure in the Honda manual online in the UK is to just use a
>>hand pump-operated pressurizer with guage, and see if the pressure drops
>>in the cooling system or cap. I don't know which they used at the shop...
>>
>>
>>>Your problem is NOT the rad cap. If it were, the reservoir would be
>>>FULL.
>>
>> Good point.
>>
>>
>>
>>>There is also the possibility of a worn water pump. In that case the
>>>coolant would drip down the block under the timing belt cover and may
>>>not be obvious. Findinig that leak means carefully inspecting the crank
>>>pulley area.
>>>
>>>Do not put this off. You WILL damage your engine, possibly badly. You're
>>>supposed to check your coolant level every time you open the hood, or at
>>>least once a week.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> What I'm going to do, assuming I can even afford the cost of a new
>>gasket done by the dealer, is to tell them to look for leaks, especially
>>at the water pump. If they find none, I'll have them replace the head
>>gasket. Shouldn't they install the new timing belt and water pump for no
>>extra labor charge (they will be providing the parts, not me) when they
>>do the gasket? I'm also having the front oil seals replaced as a
>>preventive measure. Thanks for your response. If you could answer this
>>post before this evening, when I drop it off, I'd appreciate it greatly.
>
>
> Seems like you're jumping the gun a little bit here. How low was it in the
> reservoir? When you say reservoir do you just mean the overflow tank, or
> the radiator?
>
> In normal use, the system will settle out to where the overflow tank sits at
> the "min" mark when the engine has cooled & the level will rise to around
> the "max" mark when the engine is hot & has been running for a while.
>
> I certainly would not spend money replacing a head gasket that has not even
> been diagnosed. There is not enough info here to even say for sure that
> there is a problem.
>

I know. On the one hand it may be nothing. On the other it could be
engine-threatening. The dealer told us in essesnce, that we can't afford
a new gasket - didn't even quote a price. And we wonder why cars aren't
maintained like they used to be...

The reservoir was empty, or virtually so, both times.

mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote:
> E Meyer wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2/20/08 6:20 AM, in article gWUuj.16648$FK2.1405@trndny08,
>> "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>
>>>> "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote in
>>>> news:_8Iuj.4853$0%3.3542@trnddc06:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tony Hwang wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When I had the oil changed in November, I was told they had to
>>>>>>>> add "quite a bit" of coolant to the reservoir. Since the car
>>>>>>>> came from
>>>>>>>> NM, with a spotty service record, I had hoped that it was simply
>>>>>>>> not topped off ever. Now, three months later, with only moderate
>>>>>>>> driving, I see the reservoir is virtually empty again. I don't see
>>>>>>>> excessive white smoke in the exhaust, or smell antifreeze in it -
>>>>>>>> although I haven't sniffed it specifically for that, yet. The oil
>>>>>>>> looks fine. I don't smell coolant inside the car, either. It would
>>>>>>>> be hard to spot a slow drip in this wet Winter weather. How common
>>>>>>>> are internal head gasket leaks in this engine, as opposed to slow
>>>>>>>> leaks in the reservoirs?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> First I'd replace the rad. cap and see.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good idea. I didn't realize that pressure leaks were such a common
>>>>>> problem. I may have the system pressure-tested if replacing the cap
>>>>>> doesn't work. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I took the car to a local shop today. They do free pressure tests
>>>>> (I gave them $20 anyway). No leaks, including the cap. Unless I'm
>>>>> missing
>>>>> something, it has to be the #@!@# head gasket, right? Assuming it's
>>>>> going straight to the exhaust and not burning much, how safe is it to
>>>>> leave it alone? Any suggestions?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The pressure test needs to be performed in two places.
>>>> 1) the cooling system, and
>>>> 2) the combusion chambers.
>>>>
>>>> the first is done in conjuction with the introduction of UV dye to the
>>>> coolant, this being detected on the outside with a black light. The
>>>> second consists of shop air being blown into each combustion chamber,
>>>> then the rad filler neck being then inspected for bubbles.
>>>>
>>>> There is a third test that uses special paper test strips dipped into
>>>> the rad filler neck. These change color in the presence of combustion
>>>> gases in the coolant.
>>>
>>> The procedure in the Honda manual online in the UK is to just use a
>>> hand pump-operated pressurizer with guage, and see if the pressure drops
>>> in the cooling system or cap. I don't know which they used at the
>>> shop...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Your problem is NOT the rad cap. If it were, the reservoir would be
>>>> FULL.
>>>
>>> Good point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is also the possibility of a worn water pump. In that case the
>>>> coolant would drip down the block under the timing belt cover and may
>>>> not be obvious. Findinig that leak means carefully inspecting the crank
>>>> pulley area.
>>>>
>>>> Do not put this off. You WILL damage your engine, possibly badly.
>>>> You're
>>>> supposed to check your coolant level every time you open the hood,
>>>> or at
>>>> least once a week.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> What I'm going to do, assuming I can even afford the cost of a new
>>> gasket done by the dealer, is to tell them to look for leaks, especially
>>> at the water pump. If they find none, I'll have them replace the head
>>> gasket. Shouldn't they install the new timing belt and water pump for no
>>> extra labor charge (they will be providing the parts, not me) when they
>>> do the gasket? I'm also having the front oil seals replaced as a
>>> preventive measure. Thanks for your response. If you could answer this
>>> post before this evening, when I drop it off, I'd appreciate it greatly.
>>
>>
>> Seems like you're jumping the gun a little bit here. How low was it
>> in the
>> reservoir? When you say reservoir do you just mean the overflow tank, or
>> the radiator?
>> In normal use, the system will settle out to where the overflow tank
>> sits at
>> the "min" mark when the engine has cooled & the level will rise to around
>> the "max" mark when the engine is hot & has been running for a while.
>>
>> I certainly would not spend money replacing a head gasket that has not
>> even
>> been diagnosed. There is not enough info here to even say for sure that
>> there is a problem.
>>
>
> I know. On the one hand it may be nothing. On the other it could be
> engine-threatening. The dealer told us in essesnce, that we can't afford
> a new gasket - didn't even quote a price. And we wonder why cars aren't
> maintained like they used to be...
>
> The reservoir was empty, or virtually so, both times.

then you either have a leak [which should be obvious somewhere - you
need to inspect properly] or you have a blown gasket. pressure tests
don't necessarily work for diagnosing gaskets unless the vehicle is at
full operating temperature. and even then... observing bubbles in the
coolant is the only sure-fire way of knowing.

bottom line, it's pointless spending money on the belt until you have a
correct diagnosis.

also, for repair economics, given the money that some repair shops
charge for head gasket work, it may be more economic to replace the
whole engine. you can buy a jdm import for a few hundred bucks and
replacement time is way lower than the time necessary to strip, clean,
prep and reassemble a motor for a gasket. and there's the problem of
repair shops using abrasives in preparation witch will in due course,
cause the car to burn oil. and there's the problem of many places
insisting on skimming your head, even if it doesn't need it.