Timing belt Time belt

jjpylp DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:

> I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice
> groved pistons.
> I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince
> engine well BS i got one right here!
> My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC
> and it was a non-interferince engine as well.

--------------------

The grooves in the tops of the pistons (that look like the dents your
valves would make) are not proof that you're looking at a
non-interference engine.

They allow some of the valves to still be opening (or closing) while the
piston is at TDC. Keep in mind there are three other strokes, not just
the combustion one.

'Curly'
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

On Jan 19, 2:19 pm, motsco_ <mots....TakeThisOut@interbaun.com> wrote:
> jjp....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> > I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice
> > groved pistons.
> > I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince
> > engine well BS i got one right here!
> > My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC
> > and it was a non-interferince engine as well.
>
> --------------------
>
> The grooves in the tops of the pistons (that look like the dents your
> valves would make) are not proof that you're looking at a
> non-interference engine.
>
> They allow some of the valves to still be opening (or closing) while the
> piston is at TDC. Keep in mind there are three other strokes, not just
> the combustion one.
>
> 'Curly'

Ok what else is there to a non-interference engine?
If the valves cant hit how can they get bent or broke?
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

C I have a 1987 Acura Integra my timing belt broke. I called every
Honda "Mechanic" I could think of they all said get another car that
ones trash and guess what they all had one for sale!! So I bought one
3 weeks later im changing a F@#$% head gasket. Yeah I agree with the
guy that says its all GREED!!! So im just gonna replace the belt and
water pump and finish driving that rusty p.o.s. into the ground!!!!!
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

Here is a link to a photo of my 1991 Civic engine block. I would never
assume that these groves were made by the valves hitting the pistons.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjpylp/sets/72157603769870713/
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

On Jan 21, 12:47 pm, motsco_ <mots....TakeThisOut@interbaun.com> wrote:
> jjp....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jan 19, 2:19 pm, motsco_ <mots....TakeThisOut@interbaun.com> wrote:
> >> jjp....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice
> >>> groved pistons.
> >>> I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince
> >>> engine well BS i got one right here!
> >>> My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC
> >>> and it was a non-interferince engine as well.
> >> --------------------
>
> >> The grooves in the tops of the pistons (that look like the dents your
> >> valves would make) are not proof that you're looking at a
> >> non-interference engine.
>
> >> They allow some of the valves to still be opening (or closing) while the
> >> piston is at TDC. Keep in mind there are three other strokes, not just
> >> the combustion one.
>
> >> 'Curly'
>
> > Ok what else is there to a non-interference engine?
> > If the valves cant hit how can they get bent or broke?
>
> -----------------
>
> I didn't say they can't hit. I only said there's room for the valves to
> open or close early / late without hitting the top of the piston. This
> should convince you that the timing of the cams is of great importance.
> If your timing belt is even a couple teeth out of time, you'll be buying
> and installing some new hardware.
>
> 'Curly'- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So is this one (referring to the picture) a interference or non
interference engine. I am confused no I thought that from (what I read
earlier on the post) that the groves made it a non-interference
engine?
If the groves don't make it a non-interference engine what does?
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

jjpylp.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 19, 2:19 pm, motsco_ <mots....TakeThisOut@interbaun.com> wrote:
>> jjp....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice
>>> groved pistons.
>>> I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince
>>> engine well BS i got one right here!
>>> My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC
>>> and it was a non-interferince engine as well.
>> --------------------
>>
>> The grooves in the tops of the pistons (that look like the dents your
>> valves would make) are not proof that you're looking at a
>> non-interference engine.
>>
>> They allow some of the valves to still be opening (or closing) while the
>> piston is at TDC. Keep in mind there are three other strokes, not just
>> the combustion one.
>>
>> 'Curly'
>
> Ok what else is there to a non-interference engine?
> If the valves cant hit how can they get bent or broke?

-----------------

I didn't say they can't hit. I only said there's room for the valves to
open or close early / late without hitting the top of the piston. This
should convince you that the timing of the cams is of great importance.
If your timing belt is even a couple teeth out of time, you'll be buying
and installing some new hardware.

'Curly'
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

On Jan 21, 12:55 pm, jjp... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 21, 12:47 pm, motsco_ <mots... RemoveThis @interbaun.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > jjp... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Jan 19, 2:19 pm, motsco_ <mots... RemoveThis @interbaun.com> wrote:
> > >> jjp... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
> > >>> I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice
> > >>> groved pistons.
> > >>> I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince
> > >>> engine well BS i got one right here!
> > >>> My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC
> > >>> and it was a non-interferince engine as well.
> > >> --------------------
>
> > >> The grooves in the tops of the pistons (that look like the dents your
> > >> valves would make) are not proof that you're looking at a
> > >> non-interference engine.
>
> > >> They allow some of the valves to still be opening (or closing) while the
> > >> piston is at TDC. Keep in mind there are three other strokes, not just
> > >> the combustion one.
>
> > >> 'Curly'
>
> > > Ok what else is there to a non-interference engine?
> > > If the valves cant hit how can they get bent or broke?
>
> > -----------------
>
> > I didn't say they can't hit. I only said there's room for the valves to
> > open or close early / late without hitting the top of the piston. This
> > should convince you that the timing of the cams is of great importance.
> > If your timing belt is even a couple teeth out of time, you'll be buying
> > and installing some new hardware.
>
> > 'Curly'- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> So is this one (referring to the picture) a interference or non
> interference engine. I am confused no I thought that from (what I read
> earlier on the post) that the groves made it a non-interference
> engine?
> If the groves don't make it a non-interference engine what does?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not gonna reply 'Curly'? I guess your right James it is $$GREED$$!!
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

jjpylp DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:

>>> Ok what else is there to a non-interference engine?
>>> If the valves cant hit how can they get bent or broke?
>> -----------------
>>
>> I didn't say they can't hit. I only said there's room for the valves to
>> open or close early / late without hitting the top of the piston. This
>> should convince you that the timing of the cams is of great importance.
>> If your timing belt is even a couple teeth out of time, you'll be buying
>> and installing some new hardware.
>>
>> 'Curly'- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> So is this one (referring to the picture) a interference or non
> interference engine. I am confused no I thought that from (what I read
> earlier on the post) that the groves made it a non-interference
> engine?
> If the groves don't make it a non-interference engine what does?

--------------------

I'm no expert on Honda engines. I think the definition of an
interference engine is one that allows the valves and pistons to share
the same 'space', but at different times. Break the belt and they share
the space at the same time. I think some pre-'90's Honda engines are
non-interference. I blew a TB on a Dog Caravan and didnt' wreck any
valves (at least you couldn't tell the difference). It was _supposedly_
a Mitsubishi interference engine.

Tegger (and many others) know more about it . . .

'Curly'
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

jjpylp.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:

>> If the groves don't make it a non-interference engine what does?- Hide quoted text -
>>
--------------------------

Here's a similar definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_engine

'Curly'
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

On Jan 24, 11:39 am, "James" <anonymous> wrote:
> <jjp....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message:
> >Not gonna reply 'Curly'? I guess your right James it is $$GREED$$!!
>
> Of course I am. ) But first let me say that Honda builds a darn fine
> automobile. They are extremely reliable, and they have earned a reputation
> for consistent quality. But as long as making money is their primary goal
> (and we know it is), it is inevitable that there will be compromises. But
> there are some auto manufacturers whose primary goal is to milk the customer
> for as much of the green as they can. Especially by selling highly marked up
> replacement parts to replace their cheap original failed parts. And they
> sell them by the truckload because they engineer their vehicles to
> constantly require them. Now these companies are totally driven by greed.
> But they still sell their vehicles. Why? Because there are a vast number of
> patriots who always buy American products. But could American car companies
> build quality vehicles? Sure they could. But they don't. Why? Because using
> cheaper parts initially saves money, and means even larger profits down the
> road by selling replacement parts. One company that comes to mind is
> Chrysler corp. Man, this company is the worst in my opinion. FORD has become
> an acronym for many things of which most of us are familiar... Now there are
> those that may argue that it is the high cost of union labor that is forcing
> American car manufacturers to build self destructing automobiles. This
> certainly is believable. So for even more greed, factor in the UAW.
>
> Now back to timing belts. My personal experience shows that 105K miles is a
> bit too soon for a Honda. But consider the $1000 it typically costs to
> replace a timing belt/water pump/etc. And that more than 93% of that goes in
> the dealer's pocket. Well, let's just say that I wouldn't be a bit surprised
> if the guys who write the maintenance schedules get kickbacks from the auto
> dealers. Either that or it's Honda's way of saying "thank you" to the
> dealer..? Some people probably just accept it and say "better safe than
> sorry. After all, it's only a thousand bucks..." Yeah right, only a
> thousand. Question is, did it have to be that way? Or did Honda save some
> $greenbacks$ by designing a car for assembly rather than serviceability...?
> So let the customer pay for the difficult servicing...I mean, why should
> Honda. Makes sense to me, if your Honda. ;o)
>
> As for the interference type engine, if true, I'm not entirely sure of their
> motivations behind that one. But if I had to guess I'd say "It always been
> about money, and it always will..."
>
> -James

Don't get me wrong I love Hondas. I hate being lied to! Every Honda
mechanic I talked to said scrap it not bring it in we can fix it. So I
bought another Honda this time a civic from none other than a Honda
mechanic! Well long story short within 3 weeks I was pulling the head
to replace the head gasket.
I was told that Hondas have no groves in the pistons for the valves
to be out and the pistons to be up at the same time. Well I took the
head off and wow groves in the pistons!
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

<jjpylp DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message:

>Not gonna reply 'Curly'? I guess your right James it is $$GREED$$!!

Of course I am. ) But first let me say that Honda builds a darn fine
automobile. They are extremely reliable, and they have earned a reputation
for consistent quality. But as long as making money is their primary goal
(and we know it is), it is inevitable that there will be compromises. But
there are some auto manufacturers whose primary goal is to milk the customer
for as much of the green as they can. Especially by selling highly marked up
replacement parts to replace their cheap original failed parts. And they
sell them by the truckload because they engineer their vehicles to
constantly require them. Now these companies are totally driven by greed.
But they still sell their vehicles. Why? Because there are a vast number of
patriots who always buy American products. But could American car companies
build quality vehicles? Sure they could. But they don't. Why? Because using
cheaper parts initially saves money, and means even larger profits down the
road by selling replacement parts. One company that comes to mind is
Chrysler corp. Man, this company is the worst in my opinion. FORD has become
an acronym for many things of which most of us are familiar... Now there are
those that may argue that it is the high cost of union labor that is forcing
American car manufacturers to build self destructing automobiles. This
certainly is believable. So for even more greed, factor in the UAW.

Now back to timing belts. My personal experience shows that 105K miles is a
bit too soon for a Honda. But consider the $1000 it typically costs to
replace a timing belt/water pump/etc. And that more than 93% of that goes in
the dealer's pocket. Well, let's just say that I wouldn't be a bit surprised
if the guys who write the maintenance schedules get kickbacks from the auto
dealers. Either that or it's Honda's way of saying "thank you" to the
dealer..? Some people probably just accept it and say "better safe than
sorry. After all, it's only a thousand bucks..." Yeah right, only a
thousand. Question is, did it have to be that way? Or did Honda save some
$greenbacks$ by designing a car for assembly rather than serviceability...?
So let the customer pay for the difficult servicing...I mean, why should
Honda. Makes sense to me, if your Honda. ;o)

As for the interference type engine, if true, I'm not entirely sure of their
motivations behind that one. But if I had to guess I'd say "It always been
about money, and it always will..."

-James
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt 

On Jan 24, 3:06 pm, jjp... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 24, 11:39 am, "James" <anonymous> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <jjp... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message:
>> >
>  Don't get me wrong I love Hondas. I hate being lied to! Every Honda
> mechanic I talked to said scrap it not bring it in we can fix it. So I
> bought another Honda this time a civic from none other than a Honda
> mechanic! Well long story short within 3 weeks I was pulling the head
> to replace the head gasket.
>  I was told that Hondas have no groves in the pistons for the valves
> to be out and the pistons to be up at the same time. Well I took the
> head off and wow groves in the pistons!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Short answer - The "grooves" in the pistons would have to be 10 or
more mm deeper to ensure avoiding the valves if they were stuck at
full lift, as might happen when a timing belt broke.

If the "grooves" were deepened to provide enough clearance for rare
emergencies like a busted timing belt, That would lower the
compression, among other things.

Race engines pistons are notched to provide minimal 2 to 3 mm piston-
to-valve clearance during normal operation. If the cam timing is
advanced or retarded as is sometime done for fine tuning, that
clearance can be used up. http://www.iskycams.com/votc.php

The piston is near the top of its stroke (TDC) for two different
events.
One is the end of the compression stroke, that is also the beginning
of the power stroke, and the intake and exhaust valves are both closed
long before and during that TDC.
The other TDC is the end of the exhaust stroke (the exhaust valves are
closing) and the beginning of the intake stroke (the intake valves are
opening). At TDC None of the valves are anything near full lift, which
happens about when the piston is at the middle of its stroke, 30 or
more mm "down the hole."

Here is an image of a Porsche 911 engine showing how close the valves
and pistons are at TDC. http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_valve_adjust/911_valve_ad...t_pic3.
Note The stock pistons are notched for valve clearance, but for
running clearance, not to remove possible interference.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/mahleRSR1069134036.jpg

And, nothing against Porsche, but the 911 was introduced ~ 1966. In
the 80s it was still going thru a few timing chain tensioner design
revisions to make their cam chains more reliable. Other manufacturers
went thru long development to make chains last more than 100 kmiles.
 >> Stay informed about: Timing belt Time belt