US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that..

Interesting. The EU has made restrictive practices illegal. Anyone can buy
any car from anywhere.

Earlier, manufactures would insert hurdles. E.g. when I bought a car in
Germany to bring to Britain I had to wait 2 years (mid-eighties); Mercedes
were quoting this lead time for RHD vehicles.

All gone and 6 years ago I bought another Merc in Germany and had no
problems, though I had to pay significantly more for RHD (but less than in
UK).

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---
"who" <i.TakeThisOut@notaspammer.net> wrote in message
news:i-4D70AE.08435828092007@news.telus.net...
> In article <46FC5F8E.AF4593BE.TakeThisOut@Man.com>, MoPar Man <MoPar.TakeThisOut@Man.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Now that the Canadian dollar has reached parity with the US dollar (1
>> USD = 1CDN), the media here in Canada is running many news items
>> pointing out that US car dealers are turning away Canadians who want
>> to plunk down cash to buy a new car.
> They'll try anything to protect their excess profits from Canadians.
>
> Several years ago when the CDN$ was about 0.67 US the shoe was on the
> other foot. In the west Americans came from Washington and Alaska to buy
> their vehicles at a discount in Canada.
> A Vancouver, BC area Chrysler dealer had quite a business selling Neons
> to USA buyers. The dealer split the C$4k difference with the USA buyer.
> After several threats from Chrysler that dealer actually lost their
> Chrysler franchise.
>
> Some manufacturers, such as Honda, have stated they won't honor warranty
> work on cross border vehicles.
>>
>> In the mean time, can anyone point to entities called "independent
>> dealers" who buy new vehicles and turn around and re-sell them (as
>> used) even if they haven't been used?
> I don't remember the name, but I did see on TV several weeks ago a
> Toronto independent dealer importing USA cars.
>
> This is one way it is done:
> http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=2eaf555f-83ff-4a71-
> abe4-1ac2e48da188&k=88155
>> Manufacturers can't stop Canadians from buying used cars and importing
>> them,
>> which is what some brokers and dealers that The Vancouver Sun contacted
>> are
>> suggesting.
>> However, there is a way for Canadian buyers to get around that rule.
>> Osler
>> added that there are brokers, or independent auto dealers, with
>> operations
>> based in the U.S. that will buy new cars from American dealers. Those
>> cars
>> are registered in the U.S., Osler said, effectively making them used cars
>> that the broker or dealer can pass on to a Canadian buyer.
>> Wilson added that the influence of U.S.-purchased vehicles probably won't
>> be
>> felt for a few years, when they start showing up in the used market,
>> which
>> could push down prices.
> The problem right now is Canadian buyers are buying lots of vehicles.
> If buyers simply went on strike for a month or two, I'll bet things
> would change.
>
> Porsche just made an announcement of an 8 to 10% price reduction in
> Canada.
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

"Who" has it wrong. I worked for DC in Western Canada during the Exporting
times in the mid 90's through early 2003. No dealer lost there franchise for
exporting vehicles. That is against the law. There is no law stating that a
US person cannot buy a vehicle in Canada. However the law stated that all
vehicles "sold within Canada" must meet Canadian Federal safety vehicle
standards" If you look at the vehicles in Canada you will have the sticker
stating that in your car. The US has the exact same sticker and wording for
the US. So if an american purchased a vehicle from Canada and brought it
down to the US the Vehicle's warranty was voided by DaimlerChrysler because
technically it does not meet US safety laws. After the first year of
exporting to the US DC re-wrote the dealer agreements stating any vehicle
found to have been exported outside of Canada is against the franchise
agreement, but the punishment was a chargeback of any warranty repairs done
on the vehicle prrior to being reported exported, as well as all rebates
paid to the dealer.

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 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

holycow.TakeThisOut@hotshit.com wrote:

> I worked for DC in Western Canada during the Exporting times in
> the mid 90's through early 2003. No dealer lost there franchise for
> exporting vehicles.

You are missing the point of my original post.

I said NOTHING about the issue of EXPORTING or IMPORTING.

I an talking about a Canadian walking into a US car dealership and
plunking down cash to buy a new car, then putting his own plates on
the car and driving it off the lot. The Canadian customer is the one
who will be importing the car back into Canada, and who will have to
deal with any regulatory, compliance, or tax issues.

The point is that the US dealerships are saying that their franchise
agreements prohibit them from selling cars to Canadians - the reason
being that their sales territories (or customer residency addresses
restrictions) are strictly defined in the franchise agreements.

I'm wondering if there are US laws (constraint of trade, etc) that
would make such clauses illegal.

For example, can a General Motors franchise agreement in Dallas say
that I am not allowed to sell a new car to a resident of Fort Worth?
Would such a clause violate any existing state or federal trade laws?

If indeed Americans came to Canada 5 to 10 years ago and bought new
cars (NEW cars) right off the lot, then why weren't the dealerships
afraid of violating their franchise agreements? Weren't the same
restrictions in their franchise agreements as we are being told are in
the US dealer's agreements?
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

I realize that this isn't exactly what you're talking about, but
Pennsylvania has a 6% sales tax. Allegheny and Philadelphia Counties
have a 1% sales tax, thus making a 7% sales tax paid on items
purchased there. If a person goes to a surrounding county and makes a
major purchase they can save 1%. BUT, eventually you will be billed
for the 1% if the out of County dealer didn't collect it. And now they
notify the county if you make major purchases other than vehicles,
ie., appliances, furniture, etc..
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

"Pete E. Kruzer" <tomkanpa.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1191091879.274118.34680@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>I realize that this isn't exactly what you're talking about, but
> Pennsylvania has a 6% sales tax. Allegheny and Philadelphia Counties
> have a 1% sales tax, thus making a 7% sales tax paid on items
> purchased there. If a person goes to a surrounding county and makes a
> major purchase they can save 1%. BUT, eventually you will be billed
> for the 1% if the out of County dealer didn't collect it. And now they
> notify the county if you make major purchases other than vehicles,
> ie., appliances, furniture, etc..
>

With a cash and carry situation, it is fairly simple to get around some
taxes. Registering a motor vehicle is much different. I don't know how the
Provinces work, but here, you cannot register a vehicle unless the proper
taxes are paid. Importing can subject you to certain regulations also
since the vehicle must comply with Federal regulations for emissions and
safety.

All of that said, I don't see why a dealer should turn away a buyer that
walks into his store. I can see where GM may want the dealer to refuse so
they can keep the Canadian dealers happy, but I doubt any laws can be made.
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

Canadian dealers have the same restrictions on selling new vehicles to
US purchasers. There are even stickers on the vehicle that state "not
intended for sale in the US', or something like that. There is no
problem selling into neighbouring cities, or provinces, as I understand
it, just across international boundaries.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Pete E. Kruzer" <tomkanpa DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1191091879.274118.34680@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> I realize that this isn't exactly what you're talking about, but
>> Pennsylvania has a 6% sales tax. Allegheny and Philadelphia Counties
>> have a 1% sales tax, thus making a 7% sales tax paid on items
>> purchased there. If a person goes to a surrounding county and makes a
>> major purchase they can save 1%. BUT, eventually you will be billed
>> for the 1% if the out of County dealer didn't collect it. And now they
>> notify the county if you make major purchases other than vehicles,
>> ie., appliances, furniture, etc..
>>
>
> With a cash and carry situation, it is fairly simple to get around some
> taxes. Registering a motor vehicle is much different. I don't know how the
> Provinces work, but here, you cannot register a vehicle unless the proper
> taxes are paid. Importing can subject you to certain regulations also
> since the vehicle must comply with Federal regulations for emissions and
> safety.
>
> All of that said, I don't see why a dealer should turn away a buyer that
> walks into his store. I can see where GM may want the dealer to refuse so
> they can keep the Canadian dealers happy, but I doubt any laws can be made.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

Wes 94 ZR580 wrote:

> Canadian dealers have the same restrictions on selling new
> vehicles to US purchasers. There are even stickers on the
> vehicle that state "not intended for sale in the US', or
> something like that.

My question remains.

Do US franchise agreements between CAR DEALERS ->and<- AUTO MAKERS
(such as Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Volkswagon, BMW,
Mercedes, Volvo) stipulate that they cannot sell new vehicles to
purchasers with out-of-boundary primary residential addresses?

Can a dealer in Michigan refuse a sale to a resident of Ohio, for
example?

Are there not US trade laws (restraint of trade?) that would make such
a practice illegal?

Would it be the case that the prohibition of selling to a Canadian
customer is technically illegal, but the Canadian customer has no
recourse under US law?
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

There are no such laws. Franchise dealers have no obligation to sell to
anybody, just as they have no obligation to sell at a particular price.

There are restrictions when it come to which VEHICLES can be sold in some
instances, however. I. E. cars sold in states that do not require
California emission system can not be sold in states that do, like the
states in New England. Even that does not restrict the dealer from selling
the car, but it does prevent it from being licensed in that state. In other
words a vehicle without California emission, that would be driven only on
private property, but not only the public highways, could be sold in a
California emission only state.

mike


"MoPar Man" <MoPar RemoveThis @Man.com> wrote in message
news:4701A4DF.CA6208CC@Man.com...
> Wes 94 ZR580 wrote:
>
>
> My question remains.
>
> Do US franchise agreements between CAR DEALERS ->and<- AUTO MAKERS
> (such as Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Volkswagon, BMW,
> Mercedes, Volvo) stipulate that they cannot sell new vehicles to
> purchasers with out-of-boundary primary residential addresses?
>
> Can a dealer in Michigan refuse a sale to a resident of Ohio, for
> example?
>
> Are there not US trade laws (restraint of trade?) that would make such
> a practice illegal?
>
> Would it be the case that the prohibition of selling to a Canadian
> customer is technically illegal, but the Canadian customer has no
> recourse under US law?
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

MoPar Man wrote:
> Wes 94 ZR580 wrote:
>
>> Canadian dealers have the same restrictions on selling new
>> vehicles to US purchasers. There are even stickers on the
>> vehicle that state "not intended for sale in the US', or
>> something like that.
>
> My question remains.
>
> Do US franchise agreements between CAR DEALERS ->and<- AUTO MAKERS
> (such as Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Volkswagon, BMW,
> Mercedes, Volvo) stipulate that they cannot sell new vehicles to
> purchasers with out-of-boundary primary residential addresses?
>
> Can a dealer in Michigan refuse a sale to a resident of Ohio, for
> example?
>
> Are there not US trade laws (restraint of trade?) that would make such
> a practice illegal?
>
> Would it be the case that the prohibition of selling to a Canadian
> customer is technically illegal, but the Canadian customer has no
> recourse under US law?

Yes they have agreements that state where a dealer can sell vehicles.
They don't restrict the dealer from selling to other customers they just
state that Joe-Bobs Chevrolet will be the only authorized dealer for a
certain area, and that the company won't set up another dealer for a set
time period.
As for restricting the sales to other areas, it depends on the federal
and state emission and safety laws. In NY for example a NEW vehicle must
meet NY standards (which are the same as California) You cannot buy a
vehicle new in another state and register it in NY unless it meets those
standards.

As for buying in Canada and registering it in the US. It is usually
restricted due to the emissions and the high importation fees. Those are
Federal importation rules. Same ones that apply if you buy a Ferrari and
try to import it. They have to go through a Federal inspection and
retrofit so they comply with the laws in the US. Doesn't matter if the
car was bought in Canada or Africa they still have to be imported the
same way.

The same import restrictions apply taking the vehicle into Canada.
No laws saying that those restrictions are illegal exist.

The dealer can refuse to sell to anyone. They own the vehicles and can
sell or not sell to whomever they please. They can even have you removed
from the dealership and arrested for trespassing if they desire.


--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York
NRA Member
Pacifism - The theory that if they'd fed
Jeffrey Dahmer enough human flesh,
he'd have become a vegan.
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

Steve W. wrote:
> MoPar Man wrote:
>> Wes 94 ZR580 wrote:
>>
>>> Canadian dealers have the same restrictions on selling new
>>> vehicles to US purchasers. There are even stickers on the
>>> vehicle that state "not intended for sale in the US', or something
>>> like that.
>>
>> My question remains.
>>
>> Do US franchise agreements between CAR DEALERS ->and<- AUTO MAKERS
>> (such as Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Volkswagon, BMW,
>> Mercedes, Volvo) stipulate that they cannot sell new vehicles to
>> purchasers with out-of-boundary primary residential addresses?
>>
>> Can a dealer in Michigan refuse a sale to a resident of Ohio, for
>> example?
>>
>> Are there not US trade laws (restraint of trade?) that would make such
>> a practice illegal?
>>
>> Would it be the case that the prohibition of selling to a Canadian
>> customer is technically illegal, but the Canadian customer has no
>> recourse under US law?
>
> Yes they have agreements that state where a dealer can sell vehicles.
> They don't restrict the dealer from selling to other customers they just
> state that Joe-Bobs Chevrolet will be the only authorized dealer for a
> certain area, and that the company won't set up another dealer for a set
> time period.
> As for restricting the sales to other areas, it depends on the federal
> and state emission and safety laws. In NY for example a NEW vehicle must
> meet NY standards (which are the same as California) You cannot buy a
> vehicle new in another state and register it in NY unless it meets those
> standards.
>
> As for buying in Canada and registering it in the US. It is usually
> restricted due to the emissions and the high importation fees. Those are
> Federal importation rules. Same ones that apply if you buy a Ferrari and
> try to import it. They have to go through a Federal inspection and
> retrofit so they comply with the laws in the US. Doesn't matter if the
> car was bought in Canada or Africa they still have to be imported the
> same way.
>
> The same import restrictions apply taking the vehicle into Canada.
> No laws saying that those restrictions are illegal exist.
>
> The dealer can refuse to sell to anyone. They own the vehicles and can
> sell or not sell to whomever they please. They can even have you removed
> from the dealership and arrested for trespassing if they desire.
>
>
there may be an issue with warranty as well. I had a Ram 3500 pick up
come in with the check engine light on. we found it needed a gas cap but
warranty would not cover it because the vehicle was manufactured and
sold in Mexico. we were told the vehicle has no warranty in the USA.
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

Top Poster Mike Hunter wrote:

> "MoPar Man" <MoPar DeleteThis @Man.com> wrote:

> > My question remains.
> >
> > Are there not US trade laws (restraint of trade?) that would
> > make such a practice illegal?

> There are no such laws.

Can a Denny's refuse to serve or do business with black customers?
There is no law against it?

> Franchise dealers have no obligation to sell to anybody, just
> as they have no obligation to sell at a particular price.

Why would a franchise owner refuse someone paying MSRP, paying in cash
(or bank draft, or some other registered security) ???

Why do US dealerships say that it's their FRANCHISE AGREEMENT that
prohibits them from selling to Canadians?

What salesman would be happy with the franchise owner nixing such a
sale?

Why are we hearing reports of US dealerships getting letters from auto
makers reminding them that they can't sell to Canadians?

What about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraint_of_trade
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

"Steve W." wrote:

> Yes they have agreements that state where a dealer can sell
> vehicles. They don't restrict the dealer from selling to other
> customers they just state that Joe-Bobs Chevrolet will be the
> only authorized dealer for a certain area, and that the
> company won't set up another dealer for a set time period.

We are not talking about restrictions on where (physically,
geographically) a dealer can operate from.

We are talking about a US dealer refusing to sell a new car to a
Canadian customer soley on the basis that the customer is Canadian.

There is no question as to the ability of the Canadian to produce
funds or sufficient payment. There is no issue as to how the Canadian
customer moves the purchased vehicle away from the dealership to it's
destination (where-ever that may be). The sale is not contingent on
the dealer delivering the car to the Canadian customer's place of
residence, or a responsibility to insure the car can be registered for
operation in the customer's jursidiction.

> The dealer can refuse to sell to anyone.

Restraint of trade laws say that it is illegal to have a contract
between two parties that restricts trade between them.

That would make it illegal for a car maker to have a clause in a
franchise agreement stating that the dealer is prohibited from selling
products to specified persons or groups.

If a GM franchise agreement with a Detroit car dealership states that
the dealership can't sell new cars to Canadian citizens, then couldn't
a MacDonald's franchise agreement have a clause saying that Big Mac's
can't be sold to blacks?

Are you saying there is no law that would make such a clause illegal?
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that.. 

TNKev wrote:

> there may be an issue with warranty as well.

For the last time.

This is not about warranties,
This is not about emmissions or other regulations
This is not about import/export issues, duties or taxes

This is about a Canadian walking into a US dealership and plunking
down a money order or cashiers check for the full MSRP window-sticker
(Monroney) amount for a given new vehicle (plus any applicable state
or local retail sales tax) and loading the vehicle onto a flatbed
truck and driving away with it.

Why on earth would a US car dealer turn away a sale like that?

The reason being offered is that the FRANCHISE AGREEMENT prohibits
sales to Canadians. So I'm asking if such an agreement is legal,
given restraint-of-trade laws.
 >> Stay informed about: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that..