Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner

Rastamon wrote:
> 93 4Runner 3VZ-E
>
> At first it would not start, unless jump started. While running, it would
> all of sudden stall. Tried to crank it, battery dead. While the key in the
> ON position, no lights on the dash, then a few minutes later, power again,
> but would not crank. The battery is about 3 years old, and still under
> warranty, so I got it replaced. After replacing the battery, it started
> fine, and I removed one of the terminals to the battery to check if it was
> the alternator, It still ran.
>
> I'm thinking if it's the alternator or one of the relays near the battery.
> Any other suggestions or tests I can do?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
I had a problem recently with a horn malfunction and tried to
determine where the relay was for it. An online diagram showed it in
the side panel just left of the clutch, but the module I thought to be
the relay would not budge. After going to the city library and
confirming this location, I also noted in the factory manual at the
library that the relay popped out of a small holder that was attached to
the fuse/relay box. That holder had, over time, filled with water that
dripped in on that sidewall from a damaged door seal. The flow was just
right that it dripped onto the relay filled the cavity of the relay
holder, and corroded everything in place (including the base contacts on
the relay itself). I replaced the 15amp fuse, fought to get the relay
out of the holder, cleaned the contacts on the wire harness connector
with a small popsicle stick and a piece of scotchbrite soaked in
alcohol, stuck a new relay in and the horn works again.
My point is, if the door seal is not tight on the drivers side, just
forward of the wing vent window on your 93, water can migrate straight
down behind the panel and start a corrosive process. Then it seems when
it is damp outside or is raining, the problems start due to increased
conductivity.... or resistance buildup in the case of corrosion. And in
my case, that relay and fuse block was under a constant small trickle of
water when it rained. I don't remember what other functions were on
that block, but it might be worth looking in to.
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner 

"Jeff" <Not.DeleteThis@dot.net> wrote in message
news:493a3756$0$21363$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
> Rastamon wrote:
>> 93 4Runner 3VZ-E
>>
>> At first it would not start, unless jump started. While running, it
>> would all of sudden stall. Tried to crank it, battery dead. While the
>> key in the ON position, no lights on the dash, then a few minutes later,
>> power again, but would not crank. The battery is about 3 years old, and
>> still under warranty, so I got it replaced. After replacing the battery,
>> it started fine, and I removed one of the terminals to the battery to
>> check if it was the alternator, It still ran.
>>
>> I'm thinking if it's the alternator or one of the relays near the
>> battery. Any other suggestions or tests I can do?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
> Check your ground points.

Good idea, the engine was rebuilt about a year ago and mechanic left a few
minor connections unconnected. I'll check it out.
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner 

On Sat, 06 Dec 2008 01:23:32 -0600, Oldphart
<mfj1952deletethis.DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:

>Rastamon wrote:
>> 93 4Runner 3VZ-E
>>
>> At first it would not start, unless jump started. While running, it would
>> all of sudden stall. Tried to crank it, battery dead. While the key in the
>> ON position, no lights on the dash, then a few minutes later, power again,
>> but would not crank. The battery is about 3 years old, and still under
>> warranty, so I got it replaced. After replacing the battery, it started
>> fine, and I removed one of the terminals to the battery to check if it was
>> the alternator, It still ran.
>>
>> I'm thinking if it's the alternator or one of the relays near the battery.
>> Any other suggestions or tests I can do?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
> I had a problem recently with a horn malfunction and tried to
>determine where the relay was for it. An online diagram showed it in
>the side panel just left of the clutch, but the module I thought to be
>the relay would not budge. After going to the city library and
>confirming this location, I also noted in the factory manual at the
>library that the relay popped out of a small holder that was attached to
>the fuse/relay box. That holder had, over time, filled with water that
>dripped in on that sidewall from a damaged door seal. The flow was just
>right that it dripped onto the relay filled the cavity of the relay
>holder, and corroded everything in place (including the base contacts on
>the relay itself). I replaced the 15amp fuse, fought to get the relay
>out of the holder, cleaned the contacts on the wire harness connector
>with a small popsicle stick and a piece of scotchbrite soaked in
>alcohol, stuck a new relay in and the horn works again.
>My point is, if the door seal is not tight on the drivers side, just
>forward of the wing vent window on your 93, water can migrate straight
>down behind the panel and start a corrosive process. Then it seems when
>it is damp outside or is raining, the problems start due to increased
>conductivity.... or resistance buildup in the case of corrosion. And in
>my case, that relay and fuse block was under a constant small trickle of
>water when it rained. I don't remember what other functions were on
>that block, but it might be worth looking in to.
Your description points straight at a bad batttery connection.

Particularly th "key on, no lights on the dash" ans "a few minutes
later, power again".

Either a bad battery connection or a bad ground - 99.999%.

Changing the battery could have repaired the bad battery connection.
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner 

<clare DeleteThis @snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:flnlj4pjoj9ghci0votc0m5qf12t9r08ul@4ax.com...
>
>>Rastamon wrote:
>>> 93 4Runner 3VZ-E
>>>
>>> At first it would not start, unless jump started. While running, it
>>> would
>>> all of sudden stall. Tried to crank it, battery dead. While the key in
>>> the
>>> ON position, no lights on the dash, then a few minutes later, power
>>> again,
>>> but would not crank. The battery is about 3 years old, and still under
>>> warranty, so I got it replaced. After replacing the battery, it started
>>> fine, and I removed one of the terminals to the battery to check if it
>>> was
>>> the alternator, It still ran.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking if it's the alternator or one of the relays near the
>>> battery.
>>> Any other suggestions or tests I can do?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>
> Your description points straight at a bad batttery connection.
>
> Particularly th "key on, no lights on the dash" ans "a few minutes
> later, power again".
>
> Either a bad battery connection or a bad ground - 99.999%.
>
> Changing the battery could have repaired the bad battery connection.

I did notice some corrosion on the terminals, but I cleaned them before
installing the new battery. I checked the battery ground and could only
find one Engine ground located in the middle of the firewall connected to
the top of intake plenum. I was wondering if there were any other grounding
points on the engine that I missed.

The truck is running ok for now. I'm just worried it will stop again, once
the battery is low. When I have time I'll remove the alternator to have it
checked out at the local parts store.
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner 

>> Your description points straight at a bad batttery connection.
>>
>> Particularly th "key on, no lights on the dash" ans "a few minutes
>> later, power again".
>>
>> Either a bad battery connection or a bad ground - 99.999%.
>>
>> Changing the battery could have repaired the bad battery connection.
>
> I did notice some corrosion on the terminals, but I cleaned them before
> installing the new battery. I checked the battery ground and could only
> find one Engine ground located in the middle of the firewall connected to
> the top of intake plenum. I was wondering if there were any other grounding
> points on the engine that I missed.
>
> The truck is running ok for now. I'm just worried it will stop again, once
> the battery is low. When I have time I'll remove the alternator to have it
> checked out at the local parts store.
>
>

A simple method of checking the output of the alternator is looking at
the brightness of your headlights with the motor running. After using
the "lights on, engine running" for a visual baseline (of headlight
brightness), turn the key off so the ignition is still on, yet the
engine shuts off. The lights should visibly dim. With the lights still
on, try starting the engine. The lights should go dimmer then come up
to full brightness. If during the engine start the lights go completely
out, that indicates poor/intermittent continuity from the power source.
As stated before, grounds are notorious for corrosion at points of
contact when dissimilar metals are involved.
Another problem I experienced years ago was on a Ford van where an
internal contact point between cells on the battery was bad and would
open up at the most inopportune times. I had the battery Cap-Checked
and was rated good by the people that tested it. That was also a
situation where I tried to start and everything would go dead, including
all accessories and lights. I could let it set there for ten minutes
sometimes and it would start as if there never was a problem.
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner 

"Rastamon" <rasta RemoveThis @dakine.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:003fd063$0$24150$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> <clare RemoveThis @snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
> The truck is running ok for now. I'm just worried it will stop again, once
> the battery is low. When I have time I'll remove the alternator to have
> it checked out at the local parts store.

It would be much quicker to just take a voltmeter and measuer the voltage of
the battery. Do it once with the motor off and again with it running. It
should be about 12.6 with the motor off and around 13.8 or more with the
motor running. If it does not go up over 1 volt then the alternator is bad.
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner 

"Oldphart" <mfj1952deletethis.RemoveThis@cox.net> wrote in message
news:aFE_k.34$Ys1.3@newsfe05.iad...
>
>
> A simple method of checking the output of the alternator is looking at the
> brightness of your headlights with the motor running. After using the
> "lights on, engine running" for a visual baseline (of headlight
> brightness), turn the key off so the ignition is still on, yet the engine
> shuts off. The lights should visibly dim. With the lights still on, try
> starting the engine. The lights should go dimmer then come up to full
> brightness. If during the engine start the lights go completely out, that
> indicates poor/intermittent continuity from the power source. As stated
> before, grounds are notorious for corrosion at points of contact when
> dissimilar metals are involved.
> Another problem I experienced years ago was on a Ford van where an
> internal contact point between cells on the battery was bad and would open
> up at the most inopportune times. I had the battery Cap-Checked and was
> rated good by the people that tested it. That was also a situation where
> I tried to start and everything would go dead, including all accessories
> and lights. I could let it set there for ten minutes sometimes and it
> would start as if there never was a problem.

I think that's the same thing that happen to my original battery. It was a
Champion DT35 4x4 battery I bought at Sam's Club. Even hooked up to a
charger (overnight), it seemed not to take a charge. The gauge on my
charger barely moved when charging.

I'm hoping that I fixed the problem. I don't want to be driving on the road
and it dying on me.

Thanks for your advice.
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner 

Rastamon wrote:
> 93 4Runner 3VZ-E
>
> At first it would not start, unless jump started. While running, it would
> all of sudden stall. Tried to crank it, battery dead. While the key in the
> ON position, no lights on the dash, then a few minutes later, power again,
> but would not crank. The battery is about 3 years old, and still under
> warranty, so I got it replaced. After replacing the battery, it started
> fine, and I removed one of the terminals to the battery to check if it was
> the alternator, It still ran.
>
> I'm thinking if it's the alternator or one of the relays near the battery.
> Any other suggestions or tests I can do?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
NEVER, EVER disconnect the battery while the engine is running. You can
very easily destroy your alternator, your ECM and various other
electronic devices. Look up "load dump". You are producing a very
dangerous transient spike by doing this.
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner 

> The truck is running ok for now. I'm just worried it will stop again, once
> the battery is low. When I have time I'll remove the alternator to have it
> checked out at the local parts store.

You dont need to remove the alternator to check it - just drop into an
auto elect and they can check the charging rate etc without removing
anything

David

But I agree that it is probably an earthing problem - did you check
where the battery connects to the chassis?

David
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner 

"David" <postings.RemoveThis@REMOVE-TO-REPLYconfidential-counselling.com> wrote in
message news:postings-4C1E05.22451214122008@news.ceinternet.com.au...
>
>> The truck is running ok for now. I'm just worried it will stop again,
>> once
>> the battery is low. When I have time I'll remove the alternator to have
>> it
>> checked out at the local parts store.
>
> You dont need to remove the alternator to check it - just drop into an
> auto elect and they can check the charging rate etc without removing
> anything
>
> David
>
> But I agree that it is probably an earthing problem - did you check
> where the battery connects to the chassis?
>
> David

A mechanic friend had a Snap-On Battery/Alternator tester. He hooked it up
and it showed a below normal readings, with the engine on and off on the new
battery. He said the alternator might be going bad, but he could not be
certain. He recommended taking it to a shop to be bench tested for accurate
readings.

I checked ground cable beside the battery, it is connect to the chassis and
to the starter (I think). The only other grounding point I can see is a wire
from the center of the firewall to the top of the intake plenum.
 >> Stay informed about: Wierd starting problem with a 93 4Runner