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admin

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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:06 am
Post subject: TOM WALSH: Chrysler gears up to use criticism to solve shortcomings (Detroit Free Press)
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Bill Putney

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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: TOM WALSH: Chrysler gears up to use criticism to solve shortcomings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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admin.TakeThisOut@ng2000.com wrote:
> http://www.ng2000.com/fw.php?tp=chrysler
>
> 06/08/2008: Chrysler's biggest business challenge, Chrysler Chairman and CEO Robert Nardelli wrote last week, is to understand why many potential customers don't consider buying Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep brand vehicles. And then do something about it.

They've been accepting self-nominations for their "Customer Advisory
Board" starting I think in mid-March.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

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rob

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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:50 pm
Post subject: Re: TOM WALSH: Chrysler gears up to use criticism to solve shortcomings (Detroit Free Press) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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heres the full monty that was on the web site



CEO tells workers to analyze complaints
BY TOM WALSH . FREE PRESS COLUMNIST . June 8, 2008

At around 7 a.m. last Wednesday, Chrysler LLC Chairman and Chief Executive
Officer Robert Nardelli fired off an e-mail to all company employees.

Chrysler's biggest business challenge, he wrote, is to understand why many
potential customers don't consider buying Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep brand
vehicles.

And then do something about it.

Nardelli wants no whining about Chrysler products not getting a fair shake
from Consumer Reports magazine or the latest J.D. Power and Associates
report on vehicle quality.

Rather, he wrote, instead of putting defenses up, Chrysler workers should
seek to understand the harshest critics of the company. And then get to work
on solving the shortcomings cited by those critics.

Interestingly, Nardelli's e-mail was sent about five hours before the 2008
J.D. Power Initial Quality Study results were released at a lunchtime
briefing in Detroit.

Nardelli and his top lieutenants already knew what the Power study showed --
that Chrysler cars and trucks had far more quality defects than the industry
average -- but most Chrysler employees and the general public didn't know
the bad news, yet.

His message was preemptive in a way, preparing the troops to hear some bad
news.

Nardelli wasn't scolding or berating people for the bleak results -- Jeep
ranked dead last among 36 brands -- nor did he try to soften the blow with
lame excuses. He could have exempted himself from blame, for example, by
saying the vehicles in this quality study were built and purchased before
Cerberus Capital Management, which bought 80% of Chrysler from
DaimlerChrysler AG last August, was able to make improvements.

Instead, he hammered home points that he has been repeating since taking the
helm at Chrysler 10 months ago:

.. Don't hesitate to confront problems.

.. Everything is about pleasing the customer.

.. Raise the standard defining excellent quality.

If this sounds like stuff straight out of the General Electric Co. playbook
from the era of legendary former GE chief executive Jack Welch, that's
probably no coincidence. Nardelli spent 29 years at GE before becoming CEO
of Home Depot in 2000. Welch, a major influence and mentor to Nardelli,
preached that a great leader must focus on articulating the organization's
strategy and values, and on developing more leaders at all levels.

Chrysler, it so happens, is planning to embark soon on intensive new
leadership training for its top 300 executives.

Will any of this make Chrysler a better automobile company? And even if
Nardelli is saying the right things as the professor of culture change, does
he have enough time? Or will Chrysler be engulfed by the sea change tossing
Detroit's automakers around as if they were toy boats?

Those are fair questions. Soaring gasoline prices, at a time when Chrysler's
bread-and-butter products are big trucks, powerful cars and family-hauler
vans, are hammering U.S. vehicle sales in general and Chrysler in
particular. Chrysler sales fell 24.3% in May and were 19.3% lower for the
first five months of 2008 than in 2007.

General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. stocks have been drubbed in recent
weeks by rocky economic news. And even though Chrysler is now owned by a
private-equity firm instead of being a publicly traded stock, you can be
sure its owners are just as nervous as GM and Ford stockholders.

I don't know if Nardelli and his management team will survive today's storms
and lead Chrysler to a new era of prosperity. Ten months isn't time enough
for even the most urgent and dynamic leadership team to overhaul an auto
company's vehicle lineup.

I do know it's smart for Nardelli to tell his folks in Auburn Hills to take
a candid look at what J.D. Power and Consumer Reports are saying about
Chrysler products. As he said in his e-mail Wednesday, those outsiders might
not tell the full story of what's going on at Chrysler, but they do shape
public perception about its products.

If Chrysler is to survive and prosper, the journey must begin with
unflinching candor about the way things are



admin.DeleteThis@ng2000.com> wrote in message
news:191856185546822.Post@ithinknot.net...
>
> http://www.ng2000.com/fw.php?tp=chrysler
>
> 06/08/2008: Chrysler's biggest business challenge, Chrysler Chairman and
> CEO Robert Nardelli wrote last week, is to understand why many potential
> customers don't consider buying Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep brand vehicles.
> And then do something about it.
>
>
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Ted Mittelstaedt

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Since: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 626



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:47 pm
Post subject: Re: TOM WALSH: Chrysler gears up to use criticism to solve shortcomings (Detroit Free Press) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"rob" <me @_home.org> wrote in message
news:484c7e3a$0$4251$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> I do know it's smart for Nardelli to tell his folks in Auburn Hills to
take
> a candid look at what J.D. Power and Consumer Reports are saying about
> Chrysler products. As he said in his e-mail Wednesday, those outsiders
might
> not tell the full story of what's going on at Chrysler, but they do shape
> public perception about its products.
>

Unfortunately this is just more marketing gobbdlygook.

What people want nowaday is a new car that costs $50 and gets 50Mpg and
is the size of a Hummer.

Whatever automakers can get closest to this ideal will win the game.

Ted
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C-BODY

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Since: Sep 24, 2005
Posts: 20



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:49 pm
Post subject: Re: TOM WALSH: Chrysler gears up to use criticism to solve [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On the surface, Nardelli's comments are dead-on accurate . . . as far as
that goes. That he was at GE during the reign of Neutron Jack Welch is,
to me, not a great recommendation or attribute. If you look back at
when much of the layoffs and consolidations and such started, it was
generally during the era of Neutron Jack's activities at GE. That might
ALSO be the beginning of the business orientation of "cutting things
down to be prosperous"? Where it's easy to cut and whack an
organization to get expenses down, but those decreased expenses NEVER do
equate to prosperity in the long term. If that was true, then with all
of the combinations and such of General Motors over the past 30 years,
it should be one of the most profitable companies ever to exist . . .
but it's not as during the era of Smale's "brand management" and further
consolidations, they started to make money (which was applauded at the
time) as nobody noticed (or seemed to care) that market share was
dropping by 1% per year (10% total by the time Smale retired from the GM
Board). When profits started going away and expenses suddenly rose,
THEN the lower market share became very evident and "important" to fix.

That's when more employee buy-out packages and early retirement packages
became the alleged way to do things . . . more cutting and whacking of
experienced employees rather than leverage them to use their experience
for the good of the company to build better products and be more
efficient at the same time.

With no sales erosion (in total numbers), then the retiree health
expenses would not have been quite so dramatic (as a per vehicle cost
item) as it would have been spread out over more vehicles and more
profits to cover them. No rocket science there, but the older workers
and retirees got the blame rather than other flaky decisions 10+ years
prior on products and components that came back to haunt GM and others.

In the short term, Nardelli can ask the troops on the plant floors what
can be done to allow them to do a better job. That SAME thing has been
done before, so it's nothing new at Chrysler. In the earlier time, some
great suggestions were made and more cost savings were realized than
expected (by news reports of such). This was also during the "dream
years" when Chrysler had hit products in all areas and all plants were
working full shifts and still not quite meeting sales demands . . . as
GM was closing plants and Ford was doing decently well for themselves.
Back when Chrysler was putting their "golden eggs" in the vault for
rainy days in the coming years (as the business cycle might go the other
way for them) . . . but first Kerkorian wanted them and then later
somebody else got them (by my gut suspicion).

In the short term, Chrysler's operations can be made better by employee
suggestions of how to better do some job functions on the plant floor.
Supplier contracts and pricing are already fixed, so not much can be
done there.

They might tighten their quality standards for existing items from
contracted vendors to better weed out poor batches of items before they
get to the assembly line for installation, for example. They can look
at ways to not damage parts or otherwise be wasteful in the assembly
process and other things on the plant floor.

They can also use existing warranty records to design coming vehicles to
not have these same problems by "intelligent design", which might also
decrease production hours and boost plant efficiencies. Working with
suppliers, early on, as happened during the 1990s, was a key way to cut
vehicle production cost and improve innovations in the products, plus
getting the vehicles to market quicker.

As the FAQs mention, Chrysler was already on track with improving
quality and durability before the Germans got involved. What was
already in place at the Viper plant was similar to some of the German's
"new way" processes.

During the 1990s, Chrysler was doing a LOT of things right in production
operations and in product innovation AND making more money per vehicle
than anybody else. Many of the current products were already well along
in the development process when Daimler came around, but they had some
influences on them as these products matured toward production. I
believe, that if they'd been left alone, Chrysler would be a better car
company than it currently is. Continuing the then-existing culture of
dramatic products that influenced EVERY segment they were in, although
they didn't have the production capacity to really challenge Ford or GM
in these segments, Chrysler created "the buzz" that influenced what Ford
and GM had to do to keep up--especially GM, even in their truck models.

It seems that most of Chrysler's problems happened "Post-Lutz" (and his
oversight in many areas). These things might have been the result of
the Lutz culture not being carried through and then what happened after
"the merger of equals".

Nardelli's going to have to rally the troops to do great things once
again. In assembly and design of existing and coming vehicles to do
what they did in the 1990s when Chrysler was "on top". Unfortunately,
many that were there back then might not still be there to guide things
along. Many seemed to jump ship to Ford and GM, so the selling job
might be harder than it should be. I hope he succeeds!

I understand that Nardelli's already told the dealer body that they'll
have to get along with fewer products in the future. Probably looking
to decrease factory costs? Still, how they can expect to sell more
vehicles with fewer variations and market coverage seems like something
that GM tried and didn't pull off when Olds was discontinued AND when
Plymouth was discontinued.

What modern marketing types don't seem to understand is that an Olds
customer was NOT a Buick or Pontiac or Cadillac customer. If they could
not buy an Oldsmobile with a bench seat, they probably went over and
bought a Grand Marquis. People that bought Plymouths (even if it was
only a minivan) were not Dodge customers and usually not Chrysler
customers--an "image" orientation rather than hardware. So, with all of
the plant layoffs at GM and losing about 250,000 units/year of Olds
buyers, GM has managed to alienate a whole lot of former customers.
Chrysler, similarly, lost a lot of customers who did not want a Chrysler
minivan (even if it cost the same as the Plymouth used to!). How these
new car manufacturers' CEOs managed to miss those historic points is
totally amazing . . . OR do they even care.

The Chrysler Advisory Board is a great concept, as is the new blogs at
the Chrysler LLC website. There seemed to be a massive amount of people
flocking to sign up for the new Advisory Board, but if (as I did) you
waited a week to read the email and respond to it, you found a dead link
that didn't work anymore--quite interesting.

On the plus side, the new things on the Chrysler LLC blogs and website
are great! It gives the engineers and designers a forum to talk about
what they are doing and for enthusiasts to repond to them.

Unfortunately, the auto industry is now compensating for and living with
decisions which were made 20+ years ago that helped shape "the mess"
that they are now in. Each manufacturer is not without some "issues"
from those earlier times that are still haunting them . . . even the
imports.

Although Nardelli is seeming to try to cut the size of the dealer
network, THAT is the very place they should be expanding AND giving them
the product coverage they need to really make money (for everybody!).
It's what happens at the dealership level that determines IF and when
customers purchase the products and keep purchasing them in the future.

Products AND product support at the local and factory levels keep sales
going and money flowing in the economy. You can design and build great
products, but if the dealer tries to charge too much for them (i.e., not
"dealing" on them as they should to get the sale) and then take too long
to repair them under warranty (parts and dealership issues of timely
repair times), then even the greatest products will not have the degree
of success they should.

Nardelli needs to dust off the old "Customer ONE" dealer orientation
program and reinstate it for all corporate and dealership employees.
That was one KEY thing in the success of Chrysler in the 1990, by
observation, as it got the dealership operatives "aimed" in the customer
satisfaction direction. Buick had one too, called "Living the Vision"
of exceeding customer expectations (which worked well, too, from the top
Buick/GM execs down to the dealership porters and wash rack employees).

Just some thoughts,


C-BODY
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C-BODY

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Since: Sep 24, 2005
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: TOM WALSH: Chrysler gears up to use criticism to solve [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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From what I've seen lately, Consumers Reports has been somewhat
complimentary of the Charger. Only real carp was the way the rear door
sheet metal rose toward the back of the side window so smaller people
(i.e., kids) might have more trouble seeing out of the window.

In prior decades, this might have been significant as kids had to look
out the window to be amused while riding in the back seat. But in the
land of video games and headrest DVD screens, not seeing the scenery as
it passes by would give them more focus on the DVD they were watching.
Two ways to look at that deal.

It's always good to see what "outsiders" think about particular vehicles
as they live with them, but that should not result in all vehicles being
designed to be "the same as . . ." and lose any character they might
have previously had in the process. As vehicles have become smaller,
there's less space to play with and sameness has seemed to proliferate
(inside and outside of the vehicle).

When reading road test results, it sometimes makes me wonder how the
track testing might have changed if the manufacturer had made a
different choice of tires on the vehicle (for better handling and
stopping, for example) if it might have raised its rankings against the
others.

In a group test of luxury performance vehicles with performance
orientations, if the Cadillac STS has Goodyear RS-As and the BMW has a
much higher performance tire, the STS gets to be an "also ran" although
it's other credentials might have been even with the others simply due
to a tire choice situation. I use that as an example.

Reading what others might say also can show the development people where
they should have gone with an alternative decision to the one that was
made in particular areas. The "I told you so" factor.

But, to really determine if the criticisms of "outsiders" is accurate or
even merited, you have to look at who's saying what and what their
orientation might be.

A better gauge of customer acceptance can be rental car company uses and
how soon particular models accumulate their contracted mileage limit
than others in the same fleet do. Putting a manufacturer's feedback
form in these same rental cars might be a low-cost option, too. As
allegedly evil as the rental car business might be for car
manufacturers, it can be a wealth of information on durability and
reliability (as some realize) which can happen in real world conditions
and sooner than for the average customer OR magazine tester.

Enjoy!

C-BODY
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Lloyd

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Since: May 15, 2007
Posts: 46



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:53 am
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On Jun 14, 7:09 pm, C-B... DeleteThis @webtv.net wrote:
> From what I've seen lately, Consumers Reports has been somewhat
> complimentary of the Charger. Only real carp was the way the rear door
> sheet metal rose toward the back of the side window so smaller people
> (i.e., kids) might have more trouble seeing out of the window.
>

I believe it's on their "recommended" list, but well down from the
class leaders like Camry, Avalon, Accord...

> In prior decades, this might have been significant as kids had to look
> out the window to be amused while riding in the back seat. But in the
> land of video games and headrest DVD screens, not seeing the scenery as
> it passes by would give them more focus on the DVD they were watching.
> Two ways to look at that deal.
>

It's also bad for visibility from the driver's seat. My '99 Intrepid
was the same way -- very hard to see when backing up.

> It's always good to see what "outsiders" think about particular vehicles
> as they live with them, but that should not result in all vehicles being
> designed to be "the same as . . ." and lose any character they might
> have previously had in the process. As vehicles have become smaller,
> there's less space to play with and sameness has seemed to proliferate
> (inside and outside of the vehicle).
>
> When reading road test results, it sometimes makes me wonder how the
> track testing might have changed if the manufacturer had made a
> different choice of tires on the vehicle (for better handling and
> stopping, for example) if it might have raised its rankings against the
> others.
>

Yes, but performance tires would make the ride worse, which CR figures
in too.

> In a group test of luxury performance vehicles with performance
> orientations, if the Cadillac STS has Goodyear RS-As and the BMW has a
> much higher performance tire, the STS gets to be an "also ran" although
> it's other credentials might have been even with the others simply due
> to a tire choice situation. I use that as an example.
>
> Reading what others might say also can show the development people where
> they should have gone with an alternative decision to the one that was
> made in particular areas. The "I told you so" factor.
>
> But, to really determine if the criticisms of "outsiders" is accurate or
> even merited, you have to look at who's saying what and what their
> orientation might be.
>
> A better gauge of customer acceptance can be rental car company uses and
> how soon particular models accumulate their contracted mileage limit
> than others in the same fleet do. Putting a manufacturer's feedback
> form in these same rental cars might be a low-cost option, too. As
> allegedly evil as the rental car business might be for car
> manufacturers, it can be a wealth of information on durability and
> reliability (as some realize) which can happen in real world conditions
> and sooner than for the average customer OR magazine tester.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> C-BODY
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Steve8

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Since: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 1033



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:36 pm
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Lloyd wrote:

> Hybrids don't seem to make sense off-road.


The fact that electric motors can produce 100% torque at zero RPM
would be *outstanding* offroad. The energy-recovery part might not
extract as much payback as it would on-highway, but I would think that
the capabilities of electric-assisted drive would be a big boon offroad
and that would marry-up nicely with the benefits of energy-recovery when
its used on-road. The practical reality is that not many people are
going to buy a dedicated off-road vehicle brand new. They're going to
use it for daily driving as well. If there were really a market for a
true dedicated offroad, the Wrangler wouldn't be as fancy as it
currently is.

> Now that Chrysler and Nissan are building vehicles for each other (and
> you may hate this), the Pathfinder/Xterra platform would make a good
> starting point for that XJ replacement you mention.

I'm not a big fan of the Xterra platform (body-on-frame, too top-heavy,
too HEAVY period) as an XJ replacement. But it does have some benefits
over the Liberty. Is the Pathfinder now a shared platform? It used to
be distinctly different when the Xterra came out, but I confess I don't
follow Nissan much.
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Lloyd

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Since: May 15, 2007
Posts: 46



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:19 am
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On Jun 18, 3:36 pm, Steve <n... DeleteThis @spam.thanks> wrote:
> Lloyd wrote:
> > Hybrids don't seem to make sense off-road.
>
> The fact that electric motors can produce 100% torque at zero RPM
> would be *outstanding* offroad.

Except the batteries only recharge at cruising speeds, when they're
not being used for propulsion. They'd quickly go out off road.

>The energy-recovery part might not
> extract as much payback as it would on-highway, but I would think that
> the capabilities of electric-assisted drive would be a big boon offroad
> and that would marry-up nicely with the benefits of energy-recovery when
> its used on-road. The practical reality is that not many people are
> going to buy a dedicated off-road vehicle brand new. They're going to
> use it for daily driving as well. If there were really a market for a
> true dedicated offroad, the Wrangler wouldn't be as fancy as it
> currently is.
>
> > Now that Chrysler and Nissan are building vehicles for each other (and
> > you may hate this), the Pathfinder/Xterra platform would make a good
> > starting point for that XJ replacement you mention.
>
> I'm not a big fan of the Xterra platform (body-on-frame, too top-heavy,
> too HEAVY period) as an XJ replacement. But it does have some benefits
> over the Liberty. Is the Pathfinder now a shared platform? It used to
> be distinctly different when the Xterra came out, but I confess I don't
> follow Nissan much.

A base AWD Xterra is only 180 lb heavier than a base Liberty AWD,
according to Edmund's.

I believe their share a platform, and with the Frontier pickup, but
it's obviously versatile (the Pathfinder has IRS and a third seat, for
example, while the Xterra and Frontier have live rear axle).
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Steve8

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Since: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 1033



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:39 pm
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Lloyd wrote:
> On Jun 18, 3:36 pm, Steve <n....TakeThisOut@spam.thanks> wrote:
>> Lloyd wrote:
>>> Hybrids don't seem to make sense off-road.
>> The fact that electric motors can produce 100% torque at zero RPM
>> would be *outstanding* offroad.
>
> Except the batteries only recharge at cruising speeds, when they're
> not being used for propulsion. They'd quickly go out off road.

No. Whether or not the batteries recharge at crusing speed or not is
ENTIRELY dependent on the design of the hybrid system. Some hybrids can
charge sitting still at a traffic light if necessary. There's no reason
not to build an SUV that could act like a diesel-electric locomotive
when offroad- engine runs constant RPM, charges the batteries and/or
provides power to the motors (and direct mechanical power) as needed.
The basic architecture of the Toyota HSD would, in fact, allow exactly
that kind of operation.


>>> Now that Chrysler and Nissan are building vehicles for each other (and
>>> you may hate this), the Pathfinder/Xterra platform would make a good
>>> starting point for that XJ replacement you mention.
>> I'm not a big fan of the Xterra platform (body-on-frame, too top-heavy,
>> too HEAVY period) as an XJ replacement. But it does have some benefits
>> over the Liberty. Is the Pathfinder now a shared platform? It used to
>> be distinctly different when the Xterra came out, but I confess I don't
>> follow Nissan much.
>
> A base AWD Xterra is only 180 lb heavier than a base Liberty AWD,
> according to Edmund's.

Precisely. A pig. The Liberty was *not* a good XJ replacement. Too much
cush and not enough Jeep.
>
> I believe their share a platform, and with the Frontier pickup, but
> it's obviously versatile (the Pathfinder has IRS and a third seat, for
> example, while the Xterra and Frontier have live rear axle).

The Ford Mustang has been sold with both IRS and live axle in the same
model. Its not a big deal, since the suspension components are separate
from the chassis itself.
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Joe Pfeiffer

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Since: Jan 10, 2004
Posts: 117



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:20 pm
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Lloyd <lparker DeleteThis @emory.edu> writes:

> On Jun 18, 3:36 pm, Steve <n... DeleteThis @spam.thanks> wrote:
>> Lloyd wrote:
>> > Hybrids don't seem to make sense off-road.
>>
>> The fact that electric motors can produce 100% torque at zero RPM
>> would be *outstanding* offroad.
>
> Except the batteries only recharge at cruising speeds, when they're
> not being used for propulsion. They'd quickly go out off road.

I find it hard to imagine that current hybrids have such a naive
charging algorithm -- they'd be going dead in LA traffic every day.
Even if they do, I imagine it would be changed for off-road
applications.
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Road Runner

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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:05 pm
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Most hybrid vehicles recharge the batteries by way of regenerative braking,
making use of the electric motor as a generator to recharge the batteries
and slow down the vehicle instead of using the brakes and wasting the energy
to generate heat. Hybrid cars are most efficient and economical in city stop
and go driving, the gas engine hardly ever runs, batteries stay charged and
brakes last forever.
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Joe Pfeiffer

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Since: Jan 10, 2004
Posts: 117



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:12 am
Post subject: Re: TOM WALSH: Chrysler gears up to use criticism to solve shortcomings (Detroit Free Press) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Road Runner" <cfrancis36 RemoveThis @cogeco.nospam.ca> writes:

> Most hybrid vehicles recharge the batteries by way of regenerative braking,
> making use of the electric motor as a generator to recharge the batteries
> and slow down the vehicle instead of using the brakes and wasting the energy
> to generate heat. Hybrid cars are most efficient and economical in city stop
> and go driving, the gas engine hardly ever runs, batteries stay charged and
> brakes last forever.

And the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed, apparently.
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Bill Putney

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Since: Feb 25, 2005
Posts: 863



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:45 am
Post subject: Re: TOM WALSH: Chrysler gears up to use criticism to solve shortcomings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> "Road Runner" <cfrancis36.DeleteThis@cogeco.nospam.ca> writes:
>
>> Most hybrid vehicles recharge the batteries by way of regenerative braking,
>> making use of the electric motor as a generator to recharge the batteries
>> and slow down the vehicle instead of using the brakes and wasting the energy
>> to generate heat. Hybrid cars are most efficient and economical in city stop
>> and go driving, the gas engine hardly ever runs, batteries stay charged and
>> brakes last forever.
>
> And the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed, apparently.

You undoubtedly are referring to the unavoidable percentage losses every
time energy is shuttled from one form to another, Joe. The proponents
would argue that recovering 25, or 40%, or whatever the number is, of
otherwise wasted energy is better than throwing it all away as heat into
the brakes.

But I share some of your skepticism, and have stated on this ng before
that I can't help but feel that if you take the same under-powered
gasoline engine they use in the hybrid and put it in the same car
without all the controls complexity and added weight of batteries and
motor/generators that you wouldn't achieve similar mpg simply because
that gasoline motor is small and optimized for efficiency. The only
"extra" you would then get out of the batteries and motor/generators (in
spite of their added mass) is acceleration levels when needed that that
underpowered gasoline engine can't provide on its own.

IOW (with the exception of the acceleration issue) the batteries and
motor/generators are possibly nothing but smoke and mirrors - someone
should do an experiment and strip all that excess baggage (mass and
complexity) out and see how the car does for mpg with nothing but the
same gasoline engine powering it.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
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Steve8

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Since: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 1033



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:35 pm
Post subject: Re: TOM WALSH: Chrysler gears up to use criticism to solve shortcomings [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Road Runner wrote:
> Most hybrid vehicles recharge the batteries by way of regenerative braking,
> making use of the electric motor as a generator to recharge the batteries
> and slow down the vehicle instead of using the brakes and wasting the energy
> to generate heat.


That's only HALF the story. Its amazing how much people still don't
understand how hybrids really work. Virtually all hybrid designs not
only recapture energy through regenerative braking, but they also
recharge the batteries directly from the internal combustion engine
driven generator when necessary. This allows the car to drain the
batteries and use the ICE for hard acceleration, and then use excess
power from the ICE either when cruising steady-state or when stopped to
recharge the batteries in addition to regen. braking.


The reason that hybrids aren't any more efficient than conventional cars
on the highway is a combination of the fact that there's less
opportunity to recapture braking energy and the fact that modern
conventional drivetrains are already very efficient in steady-state
operation.
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