Synthetic oil in hybrid

Mark A wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.steven.DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:LuJPj.9698$V14.3872@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> Obviously you have some links to independent tests that show some benefit
>> in terms of MPG, _any_ benefit.
>
> Let's see. You claimed the following:
>
> "Obviously there must have been some tests, but since the results weren't
> favorable to the company paying for them they were never released."
>
> We will show the independent links that show the benefit of synthetic oil in
> terms of MPG as soon as you show us the independent links that prove that
> companies who manufacture synthetic oil are conducting mileage tests and
> hiding the results because the results were not favorable.

Right... I guess it's pretty clear to everyone that you have absolutely
no corroboration of your claims of increased mpg.

Again, 34 years after Mobil introduced synthetic oil, there's still no
studies that show increased mpg.

No one argues that synthetics provide a benefit in cold climates where
they flow more readily when cold, and in high performance engines, where
the base stock doesn't break down as easily. But no one has been able to
show any increased MPG from synthetics.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

"SMS" <scharf.steven DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote in message
> <snip>
> But no one has been able to show any increased MPG from synthetics.

Quite a few people in this forum have experienced at least a 2% improvement
in fuel economy, which is almost enough these days to offset the higher
price of the synthetic oil. Since we are just individuals, we don't feel
like spending several million dollars to prove our claims with an
independent test just to satisfy your perverse curiosity.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

SMS <scharf.steven.TakeThisOut@geemail.com> wrote:
> Mark A wrote:
> > "SMS" <scharf.steven.TakeThisOut@geemail.com> wrote in message
> > news:LuJPj.9698$V14.3872@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
> >> Obviously you have some links to independent tests that show some benefit
> >> in terms of MPG, _any_ benefit.
> >
> > Let's see. You claimed the following:
> >
> > "Obviously there must have been some tests, but since the results weren't
> > favorable to the company paying for them they were never released."
> >
> > We will show the independent links that show the benefit of synthetic oil in
> > terms of MPG as soon as you show us the independent links that prove that
> > companies who manufacture synthetic oil are conducting mileage tests and
> > hiding the results because the results were not favorable.

> Right... I guess it's pretty clear to everyone that you have absolutely
> no corroboration of your claims of increased mpg.

> Again, 34 years after Mobil introduced synthetic oil, there's still no
> studies that show increased mpg.

> No one argues that synthetics provide a benefit in cold climates where
> they flow more readily when cold, and in high performance engines, where
> the base stock doesn't break down as easily. But no one has been able to
> show any increased MPG from synthetics.

Actually, because synthetics generally have a higher HTHS rating vis-a-vis
the static viscosity, (compared to conventional oils) they are more viscous
under high stress condtions and that can reduce fuel economy, although the
difference is slight.

For most street vehicles under average conditions, synthetics only make sense
for extending drain intervals. It's amusing how many people are wasting
their money draining synthetics at 3-5K service intervals. This seems to be
an American cultural idiosyncrasy, because there is no technical basis for
such a practice.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

jjnunes DeleteThis @sonic.net wrote:

> Actually, because synthetics generally have a higher HTHS rating vis-a-vis
> the static viscosity, (compared to conventional oils) they are more viscous
> under high stress condtions and that can reduce fuel economy, although the
> difference is slight.

Some engine manufacturers of high performance engines specify that the
oil not have a decreasing HTHS under stress, so in this sense it's an
advantage of the synthetic in terms of engine protection, even though it
may very slightly (probably not even measurable outside a lab) decrease
MPG. But for non-high performance engines the HTHS isn't going to change
much more with a conventional base stock versus a synthetic base stock,
because it's mainly the viscosity improvers (added to both kinds of base
stock) that keep the HTHS rating within spec.

> For most street vehicles under average conditions, synthetics only make sense
> for extending drain intervals. It's amusing how many people are wasting
> their money draining synthetics at 3-5K service intervals.

The term "recreational oil changer" was coined to define people that
change their oil far more than necessary because they actually enjoy
doing it. It's easy to understand the psychology behind the recreational
oil changing. It's the visceral feel of the tools, the victory when that
old oil filter breaks free, the hot dirty oil pouring out into the
container (extra satisfaction if none splashes onto the driveway), the
joy of oiling of the gasket on the new filter, that new copper or fiber
gasket on the drain plug, torquing the drain plug to the right torque,
the clean clear oil going in, and the sense of accomplishment when you
start the car, the oil light comes on for a moment, then goes out. For
$8-10 in oil and parts, it's pretty cheap entertainment, but if people
would be content to do it only when it provides some benefit to the
vehicle it would be better. For $50 in synthetic oil and parts, it's
expensive entertainment.

> This seems to be
> an American cultural idiosyncrasy, because there is no technical basis for
> such a practice.

This is true. Part of the reason is the oil change industry (like Jiffy
Lube) is beating it into people's heads and in the absence of anyone
telling them the truth they'll believe them. 3K is too often even for
non-synthetics. Toyota switched to 5K normal interval (from 7.5K)
because a few of the people that truly were operating in the "severe"
category followed the "normal" interval" and experienced sludge
problems. They decided it was too confusing to have two different
intervals, even though relatively few owners fell into the severe
category as defined by the owners manual. Changing synthetic at a 5K
interval makes sense only during the warranty period of vehicles that
specify a 5K change interval.

On the other hand, neither base stock has an effect on the acidity of
the oil, or the moisture accumulation. Synthetics become acidic, and
eventually become saturated with suspended soot particles, just like
regular oil. It's the additives to the base stock that determine how
well they work.

It's especially amusing to see people thinking that it's time for an oil
change simply because their oil has become darker in color.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

On Apr 24, 12:05 am, jjnu....DeleteThis@sonic.net wrote:
> SMS <scharf.ste....DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote:
> > Mark A wrote:
> > > "SMS" <scharf.ste....DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote in message
> > >news:LuJPj.9698$V14.3872@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
> > >> Obviously you have some links to independent tests that show some benefit
> > >> in terms of MPG, _any_ benefit.
>
> > > Let's see. You claimed the following:
>
> > > "Obviously there must have been some tests, but since the results weren't
> > > favorable to the company paying for them they were never released."
>
> > > We will show the independent links that show the benefit of synthetic oil in
> > > terms of MPG as soon as you show us the independent links that prove that
> > > companies who manufacture synthetic oil are conducting mileage tests and
> > > hiding the results because the results were not favorable.
> > Right... I guess it's pretty clear to everyone that you have absolutely
> > no corroboration of your claims of increased mpg.
> > Again, 34 years after Mobil introduced synthetic oil, there's still no
> > studies that show increased mpg.
> > No one argues that synthetics provide a benefit in cold climates where
> > they flow more readily when cold, and in high performance engines, where
> > the base stock doesn't break down as easily. But no one has been able to
> > show any increased MPG from synthetics.
>
> Actually, because synthetics generally have a higher HTHS rating vis-a-vis
> the static viscosity, (compared to conventional oils) they are more viscous
> under high stress condtions and that can reduce fuel economy, although the
> difference is slight.
>
> For most street vehicles under average conditions, synthetics only make sense
> for extending drain intervals.  It's amusing how many people are wasting
> their money draining synthetics at 3-5K service intervals.  This seems to be
> an American cultural idiosyncrasy, because there is no technical basis for
> such a practice.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So what do you sell bud
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

ransley wrote:

>> For most street vehicles under average conditions, synthetics only make sense
>> for extending drain intervals. It's amusing how many people are wasting
>> their money draining synthetics at 3-5K service intervals. This seems to be
>> an American cultural idiosyncrasy, because there is no technical basis for
>> such a practice.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> So what do you sell bud

LOL, actually what the real question should be is "what doesn't he
sell?" Obviously he's not selling Amsoil.

What he said is a fact. For most vehicles, operated in non-severe
weather environments synthetics make no sense unless you're extending
the drain interval (which is something you still shouldn't do at least
until the engine warranty is no longer in effect since in the event of a
problem they'll demand evidence of adherence to the required oil change
schedule).

There's no evidence of reduced wear or increased MPG for synthetics used
in non-high performance engines in non-severe climates. Zero, zilch,
nada. Even Mobil doesn't claim an increase in MPG, making only a heavily
qualified statement that logically makes no sense.

"Actual savings are dependent upon vehicle/engine type, outside
temperature, driving conditions, adjusting tire pressure, and your
current engine oil viscosity."

So why should the savings versus regular oil depend on adjusting tire
pressure or driving conditions? Both of those impact MPG, but neither
have anything to do with which kind of oil is used.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

On Apr 27, 3:01 pm, SMS <scharf.ste... DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote:
> ransley wrote:
> >> For most street vehicles under average conditions, synthetics only make sense
> >> for extending drain intervals.  It's amusing how many people are wasting
> >> their money draining synthetics at 3-5K service intervals.  This seems to be
> >> an American cultural idiosyncrasy, because there is no technical basis for
> >> such a practice.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > So what do you sell bud
>
> LOL, actually what the real question should be is "what doesn't he
> sell?" Obviously he's not selling Amsoil.
>
> What he said is a fact. For most vehicles, operated in non-severe
> weather environments synthetics make no sense unless you're extending
> the drain interval (which is something you still shouldn't do at least
> until the engine warranty is no longer in effect since in the event of a
> problem they'll demand evidence of adherence to the required oil change
> schedule).
>
> There's no evidence of reduced wear or increased MPG for synthetics used
> in non-high performance engines in non-severe climates. Zero, zilch,
> nada. Even Mobil doesn't claim an increase in MPG, making only a heavily
> qualified statement that logically makes no sense.
>
> "Actual savings are dependent upon vehicle/engine type, outside
> temperature, driving conditions, adjusting tire pressure, and your
> current engine oil viscosity."
>
> So why should the savings versus regular oil depend on adjusting tire
> pressure or driving conditions? Both of those impact MPG, but neither
> have anything to do with which kind of oil is used.

go look at Mobil1 site and see the taxi test video, non severe driving
is what highway driving is, most of us in the US live where driving is
considered severe.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

On Apr 29, 3:52 pm, SMS <scharf.ste....TakeThisOut@geemail.com> wrote:
> ransley wrote:
> > go look at Mobil1 site and see the taxi test video, non severe driving
> > is what highway driving is, most of us in the US live where driving is
> > considered severe.
>
> This is untrue if you follow Toyota's definition of "severe." It's not
> surprising so many people are confused, when you have companies like
> Jiffy Lube spending a fortune in ad dollars trying to convince people
> that virtually everyone falls into the severe service category.
>
> If you do exclusively short trips with a lot of stop and go driving,
> without any longer, higher speed trips interspersed, that's severe. The
> vast majority of Toyota drivers do not fall into the severe category.

I do, my family does, most I know drive in sever conditions this is a
big city , a city where you might do 20mph all day, what you say
toyota drivers are better, Haa what bs.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

ransley wrote:

> go look at Mobil1 site and see the taxi test video, non severe driving
> is what highway driving is, most of us in the US live where driving is
> considered severe.

This is untrue if you follow Toyota's definition of "severe." It's not
surprising so many people are confused, when you have companies like
Jiffy Lube spending a fortune in ad dollars trying to convince people
that virtually everyone falls into the severe service category.

If you do exclusively short trips with a lot of stop and go driving,
without any longer, higher speed trips interspersed, that's severe. The
vast majority of Toyota drivers do not fall into the severe category.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

ransley wrote:

> I do, my family does, most I know drive in sever conditions this is a
> big city , a city where you might do 20mph all day, what you say
> toyota drivers are better, Haa what bs.

I tend to believe the manufacturer. Each manufacturer specifies what
constitutes normal and severe service. Read your manual.

Generally, severe service consists of operating the vehicle in a very
muddy or dusty areas (because dust particles get through the air filter
and contaminate the oil more quickly), operating the vehicle in a very
hot areas (heat breaks down oil more quickly), using the vehicle
exclusively for short trips in cold weather (the moisture in the oil
never gets vaporized), or using the vehicle for towing or when carrying
a car-top carrier.

You'll often see claims such as "everyone falls into the severe service
category," but these claims are untrue and come either from oil change
companies or from clueless individuals that have no knowledge of engine
and oil technology. If you primarily do freeway driving in moderate
weather you do not fall into the severe service category. If you're in
doubt, the best way to see if you fall into the severe service category
is to have an oil analysis done at the mileage of the severe service
interval. Many people just like to play it safe and follow the severe
service schedule, which is fine, but there is no benefit in changing the
oil sooner than the severe service schedule states.

Synthetic oil provides no benefit to non-high performance engines
operated in temperate climates, so don't waste money on synthetic oil
for cars like Accords, Camrys, Corollas, or Civics. You won't get longer
engine life and you won't get better fuel economy. The exception is if
you want to extend your oil changes beyond the manufacturer's
recommendations (don't do this during the warranty period!). What you
should do is pay for an oil analysis every 2500 miles over 7500 miles
until you figure out how long the oil lasts for your style of driving.
Of course most non-synthetics will also go far longer than 7500 miles
before an oil analysis shows that they need to be replaced.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid