Synthetic oil in hybrid

ransley wrote:

> What about BMWs test showing almost no wear, what about 2 stroke oils
> where several manufacturers allow a leaner mix with synthetic. I know
> one lawn maintenance co here that runs about 300 machines and states
> they have cut maintenance on machines by 30-50%. I think results are
> out there. True the biggest benefit is racing, but here it goes to
> -20f. Motors are made so well today compared to the 60s-70s before CAD
> and computer machining that tolerances are tighter, today 200000+ on a
> motor is not unusal and the car is often junk at 100000, true most
> wont benefit. But motors cost to much to replace and I see a mpg
> increase.

The problem with these anecdotes about 200K miles on synthetic is that
there are also anecdotes about 200K miles on conventional oil, and tests
that also show very little wear. I think what many people don't realize
is that conventional oil isn't pumped out of the ground and then bottled
for sale. The base stock is different, but both are highly engineered
products.

The synthetic base stock is a benefit for high-performance engines,
engines operated in extremely cold climates, and for vehicles where the
manufacturer specifies extended change intervals. But you've got a lot
of people throwing money away using high-priced synthetics in regular
engines, in temperate climates, with the same 5000 mile oil change
interval used for conventional oil. You've got a bunch of Amsoil sales
people trying to promote this ridiculous waste of money, which is bad
enough, but what's worse is those that are using non-API approved
synthetics with excessive levels of ZDDP which harms the catalytic
converter.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

Mark A wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.steven DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:csVOj.21095$%41.6746@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> No real need for synthetic in a Toyota engine with 5000 mile oil changes,
>> as there will be no benefit in terms of engine longevity.
>
> That is your opinion. I disagree.

Nope, not my opinion. All independent testing on synthetics versus
non-synthetics in non-high performance engines, operated in moderate
climates has shown the same thing.

If you have a high-performance engine, or operate the vehicle in
extremely cold temperatures, then synthetic is advisable.

Advantages of Synthetic
-----------------------
Synthetic oil was originally developed for high performance racing
engines. Mobil tried to popularize synthetic oil for passenger vehicles
back in the early 1970's. At the time, Mobil was promoting 20K or 25K
oil changes with synthetic, but they soon backed down from this.
Synthetic oil is a good choice if you have a vehicle with a high
performance engine (in fact synthetic is required for many of these
engines). It is also a good choice if your vehicle is operated in
extremely cold climates. It has higher resistance to breakdown caused by
heat and it flows better in extreme cold. Unfortunately for the
synthetic oil industry there is virtually no advantage to using
synthetic oil in a non-high performance engine that is operated in
moderate climates. Synthetic may give you the peace of mind of knowing
that you are using an oil that is better (in theory) than necessary for
your vehicle, but it won't reduce wear or extend the life of the engine.

The mistake some people make it to wrongly extrapolate the benefits of
synthetic oil from high performance engines (or engines operated in very
cold climates) onto normal engines operated in mild climates, with the
ultimate lack of any knowledge being manifested with statements such as
"synthetics provide 'Peace of Mind,' or 'Cheap Insurance,'" or other
such nonsense.

Extended Change Intervals
-------------------------
Most manufacturers of synthetic oil advise users to not exceed the
manufacturer's recommended oil change interval. Part of this is self
interest (they don't want to be liable for any damage) but the real
reason is that synthetic oil, while it does have certain advantages,
still becomes contaminated.

Be extremely wary of synthetic oil companies that offer to pay for your
repairs if it is determined that their oil and their extended change
interval recommendation caused the problem. Think for a moment of the
incredible hassle you would have to go through to prove responsibility
for an engine problem. Who would pay your legal bills? Who would pay for
replacement transportation during the battle? The more bizarre the
warranty the poorer the product is a good rule of thumb.

API Certification, Phosphorus & ZDDP
------------------------------------
Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on
the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that
they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc
Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus
because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These
oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't
have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional
wear protection.

Unfortunately, some marketers of some the non-certified oils do not
explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API
certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API
web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the
actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes
have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that
Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that
are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and
other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API
certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified
and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.

Amsoil
------
Amsoil actually makes some good products. The negative image of Amsoil
is due to their distribution method (MLM) and their marketing approach.
If Amsoil products were competitively priced with Mobil 1 and other
synthetics, and if you could buy them in a store, their XL-7500
synthetic would be a legitimate alternative to Mobil 1.

Amsoil didn't disclose until recently (and then it was by accident) the
real reason that their oils (except for XL-7500) are not API certified.
In the past they came up with all sorts of bizarre excuses about the
reason for their lack of API certification and this greatly contributed
to the distrust that people have of the company.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

Mark A wrote:
>> "ransley" <Mark_Ransley.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message >A myth, is better mpg
>> a myth, no, less friction means less wear. BMW
>> did a test years ago and found wear with synthetics was less. Its the
>> additive package that makes a difference in the oils
>
> Many people are still quoting the Consumer Reports study done using NYC taxi
> cabs about 20 years ago. The problem with that study is that the cars were
> large rear wheel drive (obsolete) US designs (Ford Crown Vic or equivalent)
> which had very loose engine tolerances, and are nothing like engines used
> today (especially in Japanese cars).
>
> On a modern Toyota engine, full synthetic will definitely incur less engine
> wear and increase mileage slightly. The mileage increase used to be
> considered negligible (about 1-2%), but these days it is probably enough (or
> almost enough) to pay for the increased cost of synthetic oil (especially if
> you also increase the oil change interval from 3000 miles to 5000 miles).

After all these years you'd think that there would be at least one
published study that showed a provable benefit in terms of wear, MPG, or
extended change intervals for synthetics uses in non-high performance
engines, operated in moderate climates. But there isn't one. There's
anecdotes by users of synthetics, there's claims by companies like
Amsoil which have never been validated, etc.

Of course there probably have been plenty of studies that were done but
not published because they didn't have the results that the company
paying for the study wanted.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

*** Sure Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy FAQ:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_FAQs.aspx#FAQs4

How much can I save with Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy?
Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy oils deliver up to 2 percent fuel
economy improvement and can save drivers over $400 on gasoline over
the life of their vehicles. That’s a savings of about six cents per
gallon of fuel. A

*** Look at the first of Castrol Syntech's claims:
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/productdetail.do?categoryId=82915470&co...ntId=60

Key Benefits
* No leading motor oil provide more horsepower (10W-30 as tested
vs. leading competitive 10W-30S)
* SYNTEC provides superior protection against deposits. Corrosive
particles such as acid, soot and oxidized fuel fragments can cause
costly damage to critical engine parts.
* SYNTEC contains a Powerful Additive Package that neutralizes
corrosive particles, preventing them from grouping together and
forming sludge.
* Neutralizes acids in your engine that can cause rust and
corrosion on vital engine parts such as cylinders, bearings and
hydraulic valve lifters.
* SYNTEC meets the world's toughest gasoline engine protection
requirements.
* SYNTEC provides Stability & Endurance under extreme conditions
(heat, load, speed) that can cause conventional oils to break down.
* SYNTEC delivers the ultimate performance under high-temperature
conditions: unsurpassed protection against volatility burn-off and
viscosity increase.
* SYNTEC can be used with confidence in every gasoline engine
passenger car, new or old, regardless of oil previously used.
* SYNTEC is fully compatible with all conventional and synthetic
oils.
* SYNTEC offers a level of protection that Outperforms All Leading
Conventional Oils, passing severe industry torture tests.



On Apr 20, 4:08 pm, ransley <Mark_Rans... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> I get 1 mpg better with mobil1, it also means less wear, since there
> is less friction.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

"SMS" <scharf.steven RemoveThis @geemail.com> wrote in message
news:xV5Pj.2500$I55.2419@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> The problem with these anecdotes about 200K miles on synthetic is that
> there are also anecdotes about 200K miles on conventional oil, and tests
> that also show very little wear. I think what many people don't realize is
> that conventional oil isn't pumped out of the ground and then bottled for
> sale. The base stock is different, but both are highly engineered
> products.
>
> The synthetic base stock is a benefit for high-performance engines,
> engines operated in extremely cold climates, and for vehicles where the
> manufacturer specifies extended change intervals. But you've got a lot of
> people throwing money away using high-priced synthetics in regular
> engines, in temperate climates, with the same 5000 mile oil change
> interval used for conventional oil. You've got a bunch of Amsoil sales
> people trying to promote this ridiculous waste of money, which is bad
> enough, but what's worse is those that are using non-API approved
> synthetics with excessive levels of ZDDP which harms the catalytic
> converter.

If you can get a 2% increase in fuel mileage, then the cost difference is
neglibable. Calling Mobil 1 a ridiculous waste of money is a ridiculous
statement to make (and mathematically incorrect).
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

On Apr 21, 2:32 pm, SMS <scharf.ste... DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote:
> ransley wrote:
> > What about BMWs test showing almost no wear, what about 2 stroke oils
> > where several manufacturers allow a leaner mix with synthetic. I know
> > one lawn maintenance co here that runs about 300 machines and states
> > they have cut maintenance on machines by 30-50%. I think results are
> > out there. True the biggest benefit is racing, but here it goes to
> > -20f. Motors are made so well today compared to the 60s-70s before CAD
> > and computer machining that tolerances are tighter, today 200000+ on a
> > motor is not unusal and the car is often junk at 100000, true most
> > wont benefit. But motors cost to much to replace and I see a mpg
> > increase.
>
> The problem with these anecdotes about 200K miles on synthetic is that
> there are also anecdotes about 200K miles on conventional oil, and tests
> that also show very little wear. I think what many people don't realize
> is that conventional oil isn't pumped out of the ground and then bottled
> for sale. The base stock is different, but both are highly engineered
> products.
>
> The synthetic base stock is a benefit for high-performance engines,
> engines operated in extremely cold climates, and for vehicles where the
> manufacturer specifies extended change intervals. But you've got a lot
> of people throwing money away using high-priced synthetics in regular
> engines, in temperate climates, with the same 5000 mile oil change
> interval used for conventional oil. You've got a bunch of Amsoil sales
> people trying to promote this ridiculous waste of money, which is bad
> enough, but what's worse is those that are using non-API approved
> synthetics with excessive levels of ZDDP which harms the catalytic
> converter.

Tests were against non synthetic, extendended change is everyday here
or listed as Severe Duty is what 80% of the US drives. Amsoil is a
scamerrs paradise
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

Mark A wrote:

> If you can get a 2% increase in fuel mileage, then the cost difference is
> neglibable. Calling Mobil 1 a ridiculous waste of money is a ridiculous
> statement to make (and mathematically incorrect).

LOL, is 2% the current claim for Mobil 1? I've seen claims on Amsoil web
sites ranging from 5% to 15%, all with nothing to back up the claims of
course.

At least for Mobil 1 the claims are more modest. Some people report 1-2
MPG less with Mobil 1, some claim 2-2.3% more MPG. The reality is that
none of these anecdotes are valid. You'd have to test the MPG in a lab
on a test track with remote control that keeps the acceleration et al
the same on all runs. You'd also need to precisely measure the fuel
volumes (more than just where the gas pump shuts off automatically).
You'd have to run the engine in identical environmental conditions as
well. Also remember that actual mileage is dependent on far more than
just internal friction of the engine components during the short time
when the synthetic is at a lower viscosity at start-up. The aerodynamics
don't change.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

"SMS" <scharf.steven.DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:GrdPj.2317$pS4.158@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
> At least for Mobil 1 the claims are more modest. Some people report 1-2
> MPG less with Mobil 1, some claim 2-2.3% more MPG. The reality is that
> none of these anecdotes are valid. You'd have to test the MPG in a lab on
> a test track with remote control that keeps the acceleration et al the
> same on all runs. You'd also need to precisely measure the fuel volumes
> (more than just where the gas pump shuts off automatically). You'd have to
> run the engine in identical environmental conditions as well. Also
> remember that actual mileage is dependent on far more than just internal
> friction of the engine components during the short time when the synthetic
> is at a lower viscosity at start-up. The aerodynamics don't change.

The extra cost of synthetic oil is typically about $20 more than
conventional oil (assuming 5 quarts of oil) at a discount store. Your claims
that this is a ridiculous waste of money are absurd.

Based on my experience and the experience of others (what you call
anecdotal), a 2% improvement in gas mileage is commonly achieved. I don't
have to test it in a lab to know it is correct. Testing it in a lab is a
ridiculous waster of money.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

Mark A wrote:

> The extra cost of synthetic oil is typically about $20 more than
> conventional oil (assuming 5 quarts of oil) at a discount store. Your claims
> that this is a ridiculous waste of money are absurd.

Why do you think that? There is absolutely no evidence that synthetic
oil provides better fuel economy or longer engine life (other than in
high performance engines or in very cold climates).

> Based on my experience and the experience of others (what you call
> anecdotal), a 2% improvement in gas mileage is commonly achieved.

And others have had worse mileage or no change. After all these years of
synthetics, surely some manufacturer would have some real data--but they
don't. Just vague claims of "up to 2%." Could be 0% could be negative.
It would cost Mobil or Amsoil very little to run a real test on a track
that would end any speculation about MPG differences, and would greatly
increase sales of synthetic oil if a real difference in MPG were shown.
But of course this would shatter the myth if they ever publicized the
results of such a study.

> I don't have to test it in a lab to know it is correct. Testing it in
a lab is a
> ridiculous waster of money.

LOL, enough said!

Unfortunately for the synthetic oil industry there is virtually no
advantage to using synthetic oil in a non-high performance engine that
is operated in moderate climates, nor has any mileage benefit ever been
proven.

It's one of the biggest scams around, selling people a more expensive
product, that was designed for a specific purpose, that they receive no
benefit from.

Synthetic may give you the peace of mind of knowing that you are using
an oil that is better than necessary for your vehicle, but it won't
reduce wear, increase gas mileage, or extend the life of the engine. At
least no oil manufacturer, and no independent testing agency has ever
proven any of these claims. At least Mobil stopped promoting extended
change intervals with Mobil 1, like they did when it first came on the
market.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

On Apr 22, 7:15 am, "Mark A" <nob....DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.ste....DeleteThis@geemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:s1kPj.5270$iK6.3088@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> > Why do you think that? There is absolutely no evidence that synthetic oil
> > provides better fuel economy or longer engine life (other than in high
> > performance engines or in very cold climates).
>
> Because I have been using synthetic oil for the past 10 years. I noticed an
> immediate difference as soon as I switched.
>
> Admittedly, if you have an older American car built with engine tolerances
> that are very loose, synthetic oil will not make much of a difference. But
> even newer American cars these days have decent engines and they benefit
> from synthetics, although I can only speak from experience using Japanese
> cars.
>
> You seem intent on saving the world from spending $20, and expect everyone
> to spend millions to so tests to prove that it worthwhile.

I think its more like an extra 15$ for me to get better mpg, and BMWs
test showed little wear with the synthetic.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

"SMS" <scharf.steven RemoveThis @geemail.com> wrote in message
news:s1kPj.5270$iK6.3088@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Why do you think that? There is absolutely no evidence that synthetic oil
> provides better fuel economy or longer engine life (other than in high
> performance engines or in very cold climates).

Because I have been using synthetic oil for the past 10 years. I noticed an
immediate difference as soon as I switched.

Admittedly, if you have an older American car built with engine tolerances
that are very loose, synthetic oil will not make much of a difference. But
even newer American cars these days have decent engines and they benefit
from synthetics, although I can only speak from experience using Japanese
cars.

You seem intent on saving the world from spending $20, and expect everyone
to spend millions to so tests to prove that it worthwhile.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

ransley wrote:

> Tests were against non synthetic, extendended change is everyday here
> or listed as Severe Duty is what 80% of the US drives. Amsoil is a
> scamerrs paradise

These claims are always anecdotal evidence, never controlled tests. The
claims for Amsoil are the most amusing. 2.3%, 4.5%, 5%, 5.7%, 8.2%, 15%,
24%, just choose any one, from any Amsoil dealer's web site, because
they're all fictional.

Geez, after all these years you'd think that there would be at least
_one_ controlled test that compared equal viscosity synthetic to mineral
base stock. Obviously there must have been some tests, but since the
results weren't favorable to the company paying for them they were never
released.

Even Mobil 1 uses some great weasel words in their promotional material:
"Fuel economy improvement is based on a comparison _versus those
viscosity grades most commonly used_ and a _potential_ 2 percent fuel
economy improvement. Actual savings are dependent upon vehicle/engine
type, outside temperature, driving conditions and _your current engine
oil viscosity_.

If synthetics really did provide a measurable MPG increase then every
car manufacturer would be using them at the factory and requiring their
use. Remember, both synthetic and "dino" oil consist of about 65% base
stock and 35% additives. Only a limited number of engines in a limited
number of climates receive any benefit at all from the synthetic base stock.

These synthetic oil manufacturers market their products to those that
receive no benefit from them with the attitude that it's morally wrong
to allow a sucker to keep his money. What's even worse is that those
that are taken in won't admit it even when it's proven to them!
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid 

"SMS" <scharf.steven DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote in message
news:ofwPj.2678$I55.563@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> So just take a new car with a tight tolerance engine, and run it
> alternately on the same viscosity oil with non-synthetic base stock and
> then with synthetic base stock. Surely Amsoil or Mobil could have afforded
> to do this.

I am sure someone has done this, but not all engines are the same so to
avoid law suits, the synthetic oil manufacturers don't make those claims
anymore (even if it does increase fuel efficiency for 95% of vehicles).
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic oil in hybrid