Startin Intermitent on 90 Legend

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 20:15:02 -0500, "DownTurn"
<mark@siamese-dream-dot-com> wrote:

 >Hi again, All:
 >
 >My 90 Legend Sedan has been acting weired when starting up. I noticed that
 >sometimes I will turn the key, I will hear one "click" and then nothing. It
 >won't turn or anything. However, If I just release the key, then try it
 >again immediately, it will strat up fine. No struggling, gurgling or
 >sputtering.
 >
 >Yeah, the weather has been a little colder lately, but since I live near
 >San Francisco, cold means around 55 degrees. And Like I said, it will just
 >give one click and not do anything.
 >
 >Thank in advance
 >
It could be that the contacts in your starter solenoid are beginning
to wear out.

Check:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.startercontacts.com/" target="_blank">http://www.startercontacts.com/</a>

for the parts.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Startin Intermitent on 90 Legend 

Thanks for the prompt response. I will try to contact them.

Cheers!
 >> Stay informed about: Startin Intermitent on 90 Legend 

Doug,

It is a sealed battery, so I am pretty sure it is the kind you don't add
water too (but I have been wrong about many things in the past, so I don't
want to swear by it).

It is most likely over three years old. If I remember correctly, it is
probably about five years old or so.

But wouldn't a weak battery just make it hard / sluggish to start??? This
is just a click and nothing. then if I try it again, it starts right up.

Thanks again,

Mark

"DownTurn" <mark@siamese-dream-dot-com> wrote in message
news:1b79323cea25dbcf8491e1050fecb123@localhost.talkaboutautos.com...
 > Hi again, All:
 >
 > My 90 Legend Sedan has been acting weired when starting up. I noticed
that
 > sometimes I will turn the key, I will hear one "click" and then
nothing.

 > It
 > won't turn or anything. However, If I just release the key, then try it
 > again immediately, it will strat up fine. No struggling, gurgling or
 > sputtering.
 >
 > Yeah, the weather has been a little colder lately, but since I live
near
 > San Francisco, cold means around 55 degrees. And Like I said, it will
just
 > give one click and not do anything.
 >
 > Thank in advance
 >

Could be as simple as a battery. Is the water up to it's correct level?
Is
it over 3 years old?

Doug<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Startin Intermitent on 90 Legend 

A lot of batteries made in the last couple decades die from cracked internal
connections. The symptoms are the same as a dead battery. The difference is
that the battery miraculously seems to recharge, as the connections weld
themselves from the current that is able to squeeze through. A good solid
whack with a hammer on the affected post will also get it going. About half
the batteries I have replaced recently have had internal intermittents. (It
is also different from bad terminal connections in that the voltage across
the posts themselves will be very low with the headlights on - usually under
6 volts. Bad terminals will have 12V across the posts but not from one
terminal to the other, and the connection will get worse rapidly.)

Mike

"DownTurn" <mark@siamese-dream-dot-com> wrote in message
news:41884b8c3fd834817cda99c931b1265c@localhost.talkaboutautos.com...
 > Doug,
 >
 > It is a sealed battery, so I am pretty sure it is the kind you don't add
 > water too (but I have been wrong about many things in the past, so I don't
 > want to swear by it).
 >
 > It is most likely over three years old. If I remember correctly, it is
 > probably about five years old or so.
 >
 > But wouldn't a weak battery just make it hard / sluggish to start??? This
 > is just a click and nothing. then if I try it again, it starts right up.
 >
 > Thanks again,
 >
 > Mark
 >
 > "DownTurn" <mark@siamese-dream-dot-com> wrote in message
 > news:1b79323cea25dbcf8491e1050fecb123@localhost.talkaboutautos.com...
  >> Hi again, All:
  >>
  >> My 90 Legend Sedan has been acting weired when starting up. I noticed
 > that
  >> sometimes I will turn the key, I will hear one "click" and then
 > nothing.
 >
  >> It
  >> won't turn or anything. However, If I just release the key, then try it
  >> again immediately, it will strat up fine. No struggling, gurgling or
  >> sputtering.
  >>
  >> Yeah, the weather has been a little colder lately, but since I live
 > near
  >> San Francisco, cold means around 55 degrees. And Like I said, it will
 > just
  >> give one click and not do anything.
  >>
  >> Thank in advance
  >>
 >
 > Could be as simple as a battery. Is the water up to it's correct level?
 > Is
 > it over 3 years old?
 >
 > Doug
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Startin Intermitent on 90 Legend 

 > But wouldn't a weak battery just make it hard / sluggish to start??? This
 > is just a click and nothing. then if I try it again, it starts right up.
 >
Hey Mark

It could be the battery, but usually hearing just the 'click' means the
starter is going.

To eliminate the battery possibility, put a volt meter across the battery
terminals and see where the voltage goes when you start it. If it just
clicks and the voltage doesn't drop by very much (<1V), I'd say it is the
starter.

I am not positive on a legend, but on Honda-like cars you can often buy
repair kits for the starter - you may want to check with your dealer. On
Hondas it includes replacement contacts, etc. It would cost a lot less than
buying a reworked or new starter, if you can get one for a Legend.
Or, if you are willing to drive around with the flakiness for a little
while, search eBay for replacement starters. They seem to come up every
couple of weeks or so.
In fact, there's one on eBay now for a 90 Legend with 6 days left:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33576&item=7938007389&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3357...tem=793</a>

Hope this is useful to you.
Remco<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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I'd begin with trying a new battery.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
 >> Stay informed about: Startin Intermitent on 90 Legend 

Dear Remco,

Thanks for the help! I will try to check it out. But just so I don't
electrocute myself, you suggest putting the Voltmeter against the matching
battery posts, and have someone start the car, right? Because there is
about a 70% chance that it WILL start up okay on the first time.

I have been alerted where to find new contacts and a plunger for the
starter, but I just don't know if pulling it out and putting it back in,
and hooking up any connecting wires / belts, is going to be above me.
Think Spanky and Alfalfa working on a car, and you will have a pretty good
picture of what I am capable of doing...

I may just have to get rid of this bad boy, as each day it seems like a
new problem is arising.
 >> Stay informed about: Startin Intermitent on 90 Legend 

Hi there, Michael:

Can you calrify something for me, because I know about as much about
electronics as I do about eye surgery:

"Bad terminals will have 12V across the posts but not from one terminal
to the other, and the connection will get worse rapidly."

What is the difference between across the posts and from one terminal to
the other? I was under the impression that the posts and the terminals
were the same thing?

If you could let me know exactly where to put the probes of the voltmeter,
that would be great. I assume from your post that I should try it WITHOUT
starting the motor, but once with the lights on and once with the lights
off???

Thanks in advance,

Mark
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"DownTurn" <mark@siamese-dream-dot-com> wrote in message
news:32c54f6e713274b839ab2f315d5bff56@localhost.talkaboutautos.com...
> Hi there, Michael:
>
> Can you calrify something for me, because I know about as much about
> electronics as I do about eye surgery:
>
> "Bad terminals will have 12V across the posts but not from one terminal
> to the other, and the connection will get worse rapidly."
>
> What is the difference between across the posts and from one terminal to
> the other? I was under the impression that the posts and the terminals
> were the same thing?
>
> If you could let me know exactly where to put the probes of the voltmeter,
> that would be great. I assume from your post that I should try it WITHOUT
> starting the motor, but once with the lights on and once with the lights
> off???
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
The posts are the part that stick out of the battery, and the terminals are
the part that clamp or screw onto the posts. A common problem is corrosion
between the posts and terminals, and that is the type of bad connection that
gets worse rapidly. The posts will still have good voltage across them, but
it isn't getting to the rest of the system because of the bad connection to
the terminals.

Since you have several possible trouble spots in a row (battery, terminals,
starter) I recommend putting the voltmeter between the terminals initially.
If the voltage is good, the starter becomes the prime suspect. If it is bad
the battery becomes a good suspect, with the other possibility being the
connection between the terminals (clamps) and the battery posts. I would
think if it were the terminal connections, though, it wouldn't be working at
all by now.

The voltage will probably be okay with the lights off. If it drops below
about 11 volts with the lights on, and especially if it starts rising again
after that with the lights still on, the battery is probably bad. You will
see the same voltage on the posts if the connections to the terminals is
good. If the voltage is around 11 or 12 volts with the lights on, try
starting the engine. (Better yet, have somebody try starting the engine
while you watch the voltage, if somebody's available.) If the starter just
goes "click" and the voltage is above 10 volts, the starter solenoid almost
certainly is at fault. If the starter just goes "click" and the voltage
drops to well under 10 volts, time to replace the battery. If the engine
starts okay - try again later!

You mention the engine starts about 70% of the time... that makes me think
it will be the starter. The usual pattern is that the contacts on the
starter solenoid (part of the starter, except in really old cars) start to
oxidize. This is a progressive failure, where the starter will get more and
more difficult over a period of a few weeks or months.

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Startin Intermitent on 90 Legend 

> Thanks for the help! I will try to check it out. But just so I don't
> electrocute myself, you suggest putting the Voltmeter against the matching
> battery posts, and have someone start the car, right? Because there is
> about a 70% chance that it WILL start up okay on the first time.

Right - positive to positive red on the meter, negative to negative
black on the meter. Be sure to put your meter to measure voltage, not
current nor resistance because you will do damage to your meter.
If you are in doubt what the setting is, try it on a AA cell battery
first to make sure you see 1.5 volts.

I hear you about pulling the starter out - if you've never done it, it
can be intimidating. On a lot of cars nowadays, under the hood can be
quite packed and it may be harder to get to. If you can work up the
nerve to try it yourself, just take your time and be sure to read the
instructions in the repair manual (I take it you have one? They tell
you how to pull the starter out). Don't get frustrated and take breaks
if you need them - also do it on a day you know you can get stuff you
may need from the store.
You will save yourself a pile of money doing it yourself -- usually
you can mess it up three times before you pay the same thing at
getting it done.

If you do decide to not do it yourself, there is really no shame in
that; we won't think any less of you
But at least you know what the problem is so that the garage you bring
it to will not hose you for stuff you don't need.

Hope this helps you.
Remco
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Hey again Mark
If I were you, I would first trace down the other problem (the one
where you hear that noise through the speaker, etc).
I strongly suspect you have a loose ground connection somewhere and
your problems can be related.
Regards,
Remco
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Thanks Remco:

I guess I just know that I constantly underestimate how long it takes to
do something, and that i am always scrambling at nightfall to put
everything back together.

One more question (and this should be an easy one): How the heck do I
quopte other peoples posts automatically in this forum??? I know I can
copy and paste by hand and then go back in and insert the > character
before every line, but that shure seems tedious.

Thanks again,

Mark
 >> Stay informed about: Startin Intermitent on 90 Legend 

> One more question (and this should be an easy one): How the heck do I
> quopte other peoples posts automatically in this forum??? I know I can
> copy and paste by hand and then go back in and insert the > character
> before every line, but that shure seems tedious.
Hey Mark.
I use outlook and google -- google does it automatically, but outlook has a
setting: tools/options/send and be sure to check 'include in reply'. It
automatically puts > in front of all lines.
Regards,
Remco
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