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LeBuick




Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Posts: 74



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:39 pm
Post subject: Sluge in coolant tank

Just bought a 2002 park ave that still has 6 months of factory warrenty left. There is lots of sludge in the coolant overflow resevoir so I took it to the dealer. They say that is normal. Is that normal or should I press the issue?

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ironworker7211

External


Since: Jan 13, 2005
Posts: 5



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:40 am
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LeBuick" <UseLinkToEmail.TakeThisOut@AutoForumz.com> wrote in message
news:422bdd41$1_2@alt.athenanews.com...
 > Just bought a 2002 park ave that still has 6 months of factory
 > warrenty left. There is lots of sludge in the coolant overflow
 > resevoir so I took it to the dealer. They say that is normal. Is that
 > normal or should I press the issue?
 >
 > --
 > Posted using the <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.autoforumz.com" target="_blank">http://www.autoforumz.com</a> interface, at author's request
 > Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
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<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=495446</font" target="_blank">http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=495446</font</a>>
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Take it back and tell them--In a nice way--That its not normal for the
dexcool to sludge up and that you want it fixed(if not fixed you well have
problems later)....This subject has
been talked about allot of times now about the cooling system gumming/sludge
up...goto
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">www.google.com</a>
and do a search about GM/Chev having coolant problems and you well find a
sh#t load of info
Good Luck
Let us know how you make out<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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LeBuick




Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Posts: 74



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:23 pm
Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

I just made a Wednesday appt with another delearship across town. Maybe they will be more consumer friendly???
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shiden_kai1

External


Since: Aug 26, 2004
Posts: 260



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Sluge in coolant tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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LeBuick wrote:

 > Just bought a 2002 park ave that still has 6 months of factory
 > warrenty left. There is lots of sludge in the coolant overflow
 > resevoir so I took it to the dealer. They say that is normal. Is that
 > normal or should I press the issue?

It's normal....about all you will get from them will be to
take the tank off and wash it out. At this point, I'd be
changing the Dexcool anyway. Check your rad cap, if
there is any signs of sludging there, install a new rad cap.
This is normal maintenance stuff, just do it and don't waste
your time trying to get the dealership to "warranty" it.

Ian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Rich B

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Since: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 115



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:40 am
Post subject: Re: Sluge in coolant tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Lan, I can't often say this but I think you may be wrong on this one.
My brother had this problem on his truck and the dealer did a complete
system flush under warranty. It seems to have corrected the problem too
(they think the system was not bled properly at the factory). 
 

As in the past, the MACS 2001 Convention and Trade Show in Orlando
provided some very interesting and helpful air conditioning
information.  However, the sleeper presentation at this show was not
about refrigerant, but—of all things—engine coolant!  (Sleeper
does not refer to making you sleepy; it was anything but boring.)
 
 
Marketing departments of major consumer goods manufacturers are known
for their attempt to conceal even a shred of negative publicity about
their products.  You can't blame them; you do the same in your
business.  That's why it was refreshing to witness a candid GM/Texaco
presentation about DEX-COOL coolant and its related field service
problems.  I give the big guys credit for even bringing up the subject
because, well, let's face it, there are not a lot of kind words being
spoken about this coolant at automotive service shops today. 
(Especially at radiator shops.)
 
GM's Jay Dankovich and Equilon Enterprises' (Texaco) Stede Granger
directed a 2-year study of thousands of DEX-COOL cooled vehicles. 
Armed with the results, they really didn't have anything bad to say
about the coolant.  In fact, they strongly defended the product's
reputation.  What they revealed to the audience is that specific
models of GM vehicles have specific cooling system contamination
problems.  And essentially, that DEX-COOL is not the culprit!
 
 
Their presentation started with a 14-minute video that is now being
circulated to technicians at GM dealers nationwide.  In the video,
GM's trainers succinctly described the problems that have been found and
the corresponding corrective actions to be taken by technicians.
 
 
Suggestion.  This video is a "must see" for all technicians
considering themselves antifreeze/coolant experts.  Without this
information, your cooling system service knowledge of late model GM
vehicles is severely limited.  Seriously!
 
Fortunately, you can buy the video for only $10 (plus S&H).  Call MSX
International of Auburn Hills, Michigan at 800-393-4831.  Ask for the
DEX-COOL Video: "Understanding Radiator Cap and Cooling System
Contamination."  Part number: RADCAPK.  Immediately following this
article is a report on this training video by John Brunner, recently
retired GM field service representative.
 
 
What was said at the presentation?  Besides the video, Jay and Stede
included their personal observations about the study.  At the end,
they fielded several questions from the audience.  Here's a recap of
their entire presentation.
 
 
1. Keep the cooling system filled.  In fact, fill the reservoir bottle
to "Hot" level when the system is cold.  Problems arise when a
system's coolant level is not maintained.  (Fleet vehicles receiving
regular maintenance, and with reservoirs kept slightly above normal, do
not show signs of contamination.  This even applies to the specific
"problem" vehicles.)
 
 
2. The coolant problems found in this survey were caused by system
contamination, and not due to the breakdown of DEX-COOL.
 
 
3. Check and keep the pressure cap clean and functioning.  A
contaminated and/or malfunctioning cap causes low coolant levels, which
in turn causes overheating and a greater loss of coolant: the notorious
vicious cycle.  No matter what the vehicle, if the cooling system acts
suspiciously, test the pressure cap.
 
 
4. On the ST vehicle models mentioned in the GM DEX-COOL video, you
"must" replace all suspect radiator caps, especially those with a
Drop-Center design, with a Stant Model 10230 or 11230 (Spring-Center
type).  (Just DO it.)
 
 
5. Make sure that the coolant is at a 50-50 mix.  Often, the flush
water was not being removed from the engine block.  Consequently, when
a 50-50 mix is added to the system the resultant mixture could approach
30-70.  Like any fluid that has been diluted beyond its recommended
levels, the lowered level of inhibitors will not be able to protect the
coolant system effectively.  Low levels of inhibitors can cause
pitting on aluminum surfaces and general corrosion of cooling system
metals.
 
 
6. A safe method of achieving a true 50-50 mix is to first determine the
actual capacity of the system (use the owner's manual).  Then add 50%
of "that" amount of undiluted DEX-COOL (or any coolant), and top it off
with water.
 
 
7. Mixing a "green" coolant with DEX-COOL reduces the batch's change
interval to 2 years or 30,000 miles, but will otherwise cause no damage
to the engine. In order to change back to DEX-COOL however, the cooling
system must first be thoroughly drained and flushed.
 
 
8. Bacteria cannot live in a hot, Ethylene Glycol environment and is
therefore not a threat to DEX-COOL.
 
 
9. While there have been intake gasket failures on CK Series, V8 powered
vehicles for various reasons, DEX-COOL has never been found as a cause.
 
 
10. Use a refractometer to check the condition of DEX-COOL.  Its
inhibitor package is strong enough that if the batch still provides
proper freeze protection, it is probably still providing proper
corrosion protection as well.
 
 
11. DEX-COOL can handle the minerals in hard water better than silicated
conventional chemistry coolants.  Drinkable water is suitable for top
off.
 
 
12. In ST Blazer applications where the radiator cap is mounted at an
angle to the ground, the vehicle is more susceptible to radiator cap
contamination and its related problems.  The Stant 10230 is a wise
choice for these vehicles.
 
 
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool-macs2001.htm

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
There are two classes of pedestrians in these days of reckless motor
traffic - the quick and the dead.
~ Lord Dewar 1933 ~

Climbing into a hot car is like buckling on a pistol. It is the great
equalizer. ~ Henry G. Felsen 1964 ~
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tango

External


Since: Mar 06, 2004
Posts: 49



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Sluge in coolant tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

AutoHobbyist RemoveThis @webtv.net (Rich B) wrote in news:22430-422DAF7A-23@storefull-
3211.bay.webtv.net:

 > Lan, I can't often say this but I think you may be wrong on this one.
 > My brother had this problem on his truck and the dealer did a complete
 > system flush under warranty. It seems to have corrected the problem too
 > (they think the system was not bled properly at the factory). 
 >  
 >
 > As in the past, the MACS 2001 Convention and Trade Show in Orlando
 > provided some very interesting and helpful air conditioning
 > information.  However, the sleeper presentation at this show was not
 > about refrigerant, but—of all things—engine coolant!  (Sleeper
 > does not refer to making you sleepy; it was anything but boring.)
 >  
 >  
 > Marketing departments of major consumer goods manufacturers are known
 > for their attempt to conceal even a shred of negative publicity about
 > their products.  You can't blame them; you do the same in your
 > business.  That's why it was refreshing to witness a candid GM/Texaco
 > presentation about DEX-COOL coolant and its related field service
 > problems.  I give the big guys credit for even bringing up the subject
 > because, well, let's face it, there are not a lot of kind words being
 > spoken about this coolant at automotive service shops today. 
 > (Especially at radiator shops.)
 >  
 > GM's Jay Dankovich and Equilon Enterprises' (Texaco) Stede Granger
 > directed a 2-year study of thousands of DEX-COOL cooled vehicles. 
 > Armed with the results, they really didn't have anything bad to say
 > about the coolant.  In fact, they strongly defended the product's
 > reputation.  What they revealed to the audience is that specific
 > models of GM vehicles have specific cooling system contamination
 > problems.  And essentially, that DEX-COOL is not the culprit!
 >  
 >  
 > Their presentation started with a 14-minute video that is now being
 > circulated to technicians at GM dealers nationwide.  In the video,
 > GM's trainers succinctly described the problems that have been found and
 > the corresponding corrective actions to be taken by technicians.
 >  
 >  
 > Suggestion.  This video is a "must see" for all technicians
 > considering themselves antifreeze/coolant experts.  Without this
 > information, your cooling system service knowledge of late model GM
 > vehicles is severely limited.  Seriously!
 >  
 > Fortunately, you can buy the video for only $10 (plus S&H).  Call MSX
 > International of Auburn Hills, Michigan at 800-393-4831.  Ask for the
 > DEX-COOL Video: "Understanding Radiator Cap and Cooling System
 > Contamination."  Part number: RADCAPK.  Immediately following this
 > article is a report on this training video by John Brunner, recently
 > retired GM field service representative.
 >  
 >  
 > What was said at the presentation?  Besides the video, Jay and Stede
 > included their personal observations about the study.  At the end,
 > they fielded several questions from the audience.  Here's a recap of
 > their entire presentation.
 >  
 >  
 > 1. Keep the cooling system filled.  In fact, fill the reservoir bottle
 > to "Hot" level when the system is cold.  Problems arise when a
 > system's coolant level is not maintained.  (Fleet vehicles receiving
 > regular maintenance, and with reservoirs kept slightly above normal, do
 > not show signs of contamination.  This even applies to the specific
 > "problem" vehicles.)
 >  
 >  
 > 2. The coolant problems found in this survey were caused by system
 > contamination, and not due to the breakdown of DEX-COOL.
 >  
 >  
 > 3. Check and keep the pressure cap clean and functioning.  A
 > contaminated and/or malfunctioning cap causes low coolant levels, which
 > in turn causes overheating and a greater loss of coolant: the notorious
 > vicious cycle.  No matter what the vehicle, if the cooling system acts
 > suspiciously, test the pressure cap.
 >  
 >  
 > 4. On the ST vehicle models mentioned in the GM DEX-COOL video, you
 > "must" replace all suspect radiator caps, especially those with a
 > Drop-Center design, with a Stant Model 10230 or 11230 (Spring-Center
 > type).  (Just DO it.)
 >  
 >  
 > 5. Make sure that the coolant is at a 50-50 mix.  Often, the flush
 > water was not being removed from the engine block.  Consequently, when
 > a 50-50 mix is added to the system the resultant mixture could approach
 > 30-70.  Like any fluid that has been diluted beyond its recommended
 > levels, the lowered level of inhibitors will not be able to protect the
 > coolant system effectively.  Low levels of inhibitors can cause
 > pitting on aluminum surfaces and general corrosion of cooling system
 > metals.
 >  
 >  
 > 6. A safe method of achieving a true 50-50 mix is to first determine the
 > actual capacity of the system (use the owner's manual).  Then add 50%
 > of "that" amount of undiluted DEX-COOL (or any coolant), and top it off
 > with water.
 >  
 >  
 > 7. Mixing a "green" coolant with DEX-COOL reduces the batch's change
 > interval to 2 years or 30,000 miles, but will otherwise cause no damage
 > to the engine. In order to change back to DEX-COOL however, the cooling
 > system must first be thoroughly drained and flushed.
 >  
 >  
 > 8. Bacteria cannot live in a hot, Ethylene Glycol environment and is
 > therefore not a threat to DEX-COOL.
 >  
 >  
 > 9. While there have been intake gasket failures on CK Series, V8 powered
 > vehicles for various reasons, DEX-COOL has never been found as a cause.
 >  
 >  
 > 10. Use a refractometer to check the condition of DEX-COOL.  Its
 > inhibitor package is strong enough that if the batch still provides
 > proper freeze protection, it is probably still providing proper
 > corrosion protection as well.
 >  
 >  
 > 11. DEX-COOL can handle the minerals in hard water better than silicated
 > conventional chemistry coolants.  Drinkable water is suitable for top
 > off.
 >  
 >  
 > 12. In ST Blazer applications where the radiator cap is mounted at an
 > angle to the ground, the vehicle is more susceptible to radiator cap
 > contamination and its related problems.  The Stant 10230 is a wise
 > choice for these vehicles.
 >  
 >
 >
OK Einstein, let me ask you a simple question. If you know the products
you maufacture have manufacturing defects such as contamination problems,
why in the world would you choose a chemical component which will cause
massive problems if it is introduced into these products, when other
alternatives which don't produce this problem are available.
As far as your comments about Dexcool being able to handle hard water
better than the alternatives, GM blames most of the problems on inadequate
maintenance of the cooling systems. Hard Water should never be introduced
into any cooling system, Period!!!.
Talk about doubletalk and Bullshit!!.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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James C. Reeves

External


Since: Jan 04, 2004
Posts: 842



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Sluge in coolant tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"tango" <tango.TakeThisOut@cynet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96139E90D1AF05551212@216.168.3.44...
 > AutoHobbyist.TakeThisOut@webtv.net (Rich B) wrote in news:22430-422DAF7A-23@storefull-
 > 3211.bay.webtv.net:
 >
 > OK Einstein, let me ask you a simple question. If you know the products
 > you maufacture have manufacturing defects such as contamination problems,
 > why in the world would you choose a chemical component which will cause
 > massive problems if it is introduced into these products, when other
 > alternatives which don't produce this problem are available.
 > As far as your comments about Dexcool being able to handle hard water
 > better than the alternatives, GM blames most of the problems on inadequate
 > maintenance of the cooling systems. Hard Water should never be introduced
 > into any cooling system, Period!!!.
 > Talk about doubletalk and Bullshit!!.

I was thinking the same thing. Seems like a maintenance headache if you
have to keep that close tabs on things just to avoid air contamination (that
doesn't seem to affect other coolant products). Sounds like a diversion
and "pass-the-buck" marketing sham to me.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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ironworker7211

External


Since: Jan 13, 2005
Posts: 5



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:40 am
Post subject: Re: Sluge in coolant tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"DEX-COOL" is the worst product to ever be introduced to your
Car/Truck...I've been through the headache's it causes and any
other car or truck I buy well have the regular green anti freeze
installed(never a problem)...of course GM won't admit any problems because
they would have a huge bill to pay for all the vehicles that have problems
now and in the past


"James C. Reeves" <jcnospam RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote in message
news:a96dncplk6_XtbPfRVn-vQ@comcast.com...
 >
 > "tango" <tango RemoveThis @cynet.com> wrote in message
 > news:Xns96139E90D1AF05551212@216.168.3.44...
  >> AutoHobbyist RemoveThis @webtv.net (Rich B) wrote in
  >> news:22430-422DAF7A-23@storefull-
  >> 3211.bay.webtv.net:
  >>
  >> OK Einstein, let me ask you a simple question. If you know the products
  >> you maufacture have manufacturing defects such as contamination problems,
  >> why in the world would you choose a chemical component which will cause
  >> massive problems if it is introduced into these products, when other
  >> alternatives which don't produce this problem are available.
  >> As far as your comments about Dexcool being able to handle hard water
  >> better than the alternatives, GM blames most of the problems on
  >> inadequate
  >> maintenance of the cooling systems. Hard Water should never be introduced
  >> into any cooling system, Period!!!.
  >> Talk about doubletalk and Bullshit!!.
 >
 > I was thinking the same thing. Seems like a maintenance headache if you
 > have to keep that close tabs on things just to avoid air contamination
 > (that doesn't seem to affect other coolant products). Sounds like a
 > diversion and "pass-the-buck" marketing sham to me.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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LeBuick




Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Posts: 74



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:31 pm
Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Got me old car back from the dealership, the guy did a great job of cleaning the outside of the overflow tank but left all the sludge inside. He also washed it, sprayed scent inside, topped off all the fluids, gave me a free 21 point inspection and let me know how "awesome" these $35 per wheel wheelcaps would look on my car.

I brought it to the attention of the service manager and he said it was $115 to clean the inside. That was the charge for a flush. i explained that I appreciated all the time the guy gave my car today but this is why I left the car and I asked for a manager.

The shop foreman came out, opened the radiator cap and said, "oh, you've been mixed. The previous owner must have put the green stuff in and that is why I am sludging so bad".

He then recommended some kind of acid flush treatment that they won't charge me for if I get the $115 standard flush. Does this sound right?
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shiden_kai1

External


Since: Aug 26, 2004
Posts: 260



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Sluge in coolant tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Rich B wrote:

 > Lan, I can't often say this but I think you may be wrong on this one.
 > My brother had this problem on his truck and the dealer did a complete
 > system flush under warranty. It seems to have corrected the problem
 > too (they think the system was not bled properly at the factory).

I think we might be talking about different problems.

As far as the other stuff in your post that you quoted....I've
seen all that stuff before.

Ian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Rich B

External


Since: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 115



(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Sluge in coolant tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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No Lan, I think that the symptoms may be the same, sludge in the coolant
recovery tank. But, I'll have to agree with you and Jim because not
all of it is GM's fault (and should be covered by warranty) at least
some of the blame falls on the owner. Lucky for my brother that he
checks his vehicles at least once a week. As for the article, I've
posted it before and only did it for those who have not seen it.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
There are two classes of pedestrians in these days of reckless motor
traffic - the quick and the dead.
~ Lord Dewar 1933 ~

Climbing into a hot car is like buckling on a pistol. It is the great
equalizer. ~ Henry G. Felsen 1964 ~
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Rich B

External


Since: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 115



(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Re: Sluge in coolant tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Sounds to me like they may be trying to "screw" you. They sound like a
couple of smooth talkers (I love to deal with people like this so I can
put them back in their place). I don't know what kind of product they
use to flush a DexCool system but maybe someone else can offer more
information. IMHO, you might want to look for a more reputable dealer.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
There are two classes of pedestrians in these days of reckless motor
traffic - the quick and the dead.
~ Lord Dewar 1933 ~

Climbing into a hot car is like buckling on a pistol. It is the great
equalizer. ~ Henry G. Felsen 1964 ~
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LeBuick




Joined: Aug 15, 2004
Posts: 74



(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Re: Sluge in coolant tank [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Rich B wrote:
Sounds to me like they may be trying to "screw" you. They sound like a couple of smooth talkers (I love to deal with people like this so I can put them back in their place). I don't know what kind of product they use to flush a DexCool system but maybe someone else can offer more information. IMHO, you might want to look for a more reputable dealer.


I fugured as much which was why I didn't go for it. I can hold my own when I know I am being shafted but cars have me at a disadvantage. I got a regular mechanic but since this car was under warranty I figured I would try a dealership. Well, that's two dealerships down, one I know not to go to so about 4 buick dealerships to go. Any bets on if I find an honest one?
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451ctds1

External


Since: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 25



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:25 am
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t about going to a D I Y car wash, and blast the tank, inside + out ?
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John Horner

External


Since: Dec 13, 2003
Posts: 153



(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:40 pm
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

 > No Lan, I think that the symptoms may be the same, sludge in the coolant
 > recovery tank. But, I'll have to agree with you and Jim because not
 > all of it is GM's fault (and should be covered by warranty) at least
 > some of the blame falls on the owner.


I don't see how the owner can be responsible. GM tells people that the
cooling system is good to go for 5 years or 100,000 miles. Our '02
Oldsmobile had all kinds of crap floating in the coolant when it was only 18
months old. I flushed the system, replaced the radiator cap and removed and
cleaned out the recovery tank myself. Then I refilled with Prestone's
Dexcool, which supposedly has a slightly different formula than Texaco's.

That was about 2 years ago, and so far the sludge has not returned.

I went the extra mile to correct a problem, but the problem was caused by GM
and/or Texaco.

This vehicle also had the famous leaking intake manifold gasket failure.
Clearly a GM problem.

This is probably our last GM vehicle. Too many problems, crappy resale
value and mostly untrustworthy dealerships.

Sad really,
John<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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gas tank noise - normal? - It's my 2001 Impala bought a few months ago from dealer. Following a complete stop, sometimes I can hear a thumping noise. Took it back to dealer, I was told the noise is from gas tank, and it's normal when gas is about half full. I used a few other....

Fuel Tank Question - I have a 1967 Chevy truck with a 72 350 engine which has crud and rust in the fuel tank which clogs the filter. I am getting ready to order a replacement tank. I am probably going to order from LMC as I have ordered parts from them before. I changed....

&quot;low coolant&quot; light - hello everyone, i have just recently aquired a 1997 pontiac transport w/ 3.4l v6 About a week ago i noticed that the "low coolant" light was started flashing. I've have checked the coolant levels and all is normal and has remained normal throug...

Coolant Light 97 Cavalier - I have a 97 Cavalier, I just had a new water pump put on because the coolant was leaking out. It has a full coolant tank now (Dex Cool) but the light inside my car is still on. Does anyone know how I can get it off? Thanks.
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