Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting

External Since: Jun 23, 2005 Posts: 46

David Hearn wrote:
> Bob Minchin wrote:
>> David Hearn wrote:
>>> Bob Minchin wrote:
>>>> David Hearn wrote:
>>>>> Tim.. wrote:
>>>>>> "David Hearn" <dave.TakeThisOut@NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:6209p2F20rovqU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as in
>>>>>>> today) idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel it's
>>>>>>> going to stall (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth. Had
>>>>>>> it's MOT done last October and passed emmisions fine. Engine
>>>>>>> wise it's been okay. Slight oil leakage from the head gasket area
>>>>>>> (front left side) pretty much the entire time we've had it (6
>>>>>>> years) - but not enough to cause us to have to top up much
>>>>>>> between oil changes, some tapping from the cam shaft (again,
>>>>>>> pretty much the whole time). No issues though with the running
>>>>>>> of the engine, starts immediately first time every time. Coolant
>>>>>>> has been okay-ish. No noticable mayo - but the coolant has
>>>>>>> always looked a bit rusty between changes, and is probably due
>>>>>>> for a change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per
>>>>>>> year. Oil change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced a
>>>>>>> year or so ago when it failed (causing weird electrical issues) -
>>>>>>> but haven't checked this time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently
>>>>>>> (last couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on its
>>>>>>> own. I reset it each time I fill the tank and so noticed when,
>>>>>>> after half a tank of fuel has been used, it's suddenly reading
>>>>>>> only a couple of miles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever we
>>>>>>> pulled away from a junction, particuarly when changing up gears,
>>>>>>> it seemed to reset - we saw this happen a few times. Since then
>>>>>>> though, we've done about 15 miles without it resetting, even
>>>>>>> though we've had to stop the engine for a bit, and when
>>>>>>> re-started it was lumpy again. Might be a red-herring - but
>>>>>>> might be helpful. I'm wondering if it's an electrical problem
>>>>>>> (coil pack?) causing the trip counter to reset - which may also
>>>>>>> affect the ignition - but I've got no real idea of *why* it might
>>>>>>> cause it! Just a wild hypothesis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having
>>>>>> the injector cleaned / replaced.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've no idea whether it's single or multi point. The symptoms
>>>>> appear immediately after starting the engine, even when warm.
>>>>> After driving a couple of miles I don't notice any stuttering in
>>>>> the idling. I tried it at some lights yesterday after driving for
>>>>> a bit, immediately after restarting it was lumpy again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also noticed yesterday that it has started idling quite fast on
>>>>> occasions - not all the time and went for a bit after stopping and
>>>>> restarting the engine (but got the stuttering/lumpyness again). No
>>>>> idea of the actual RPM as my rev counter has no dial (the speedo
>>>>> motor died a while back and I swapped motors to get a working
>>>>> speedo - cheaper than £400 for a new instrument cluster from Peugeot).
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness /
>>>>>> stiffness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where's the stepper motor, and how would I check it? Wink

>>>>>
>>>>> D
>>>> Highly likely to be the Idle control valve/stepper motor sticking. I
>>>> read of these only having 50k miles life. (my 405 ICV is playing up
>>>> at 88k miles)
>>>> Look for an electrically controlled valve with hoses in and out
>>>> effectively bypassing the throttle butterfly. Sometimes these can
>>>> be cleaned with carb cleaner and last a little longer.
>>>> New ones (for my 405) are about £50 from GSF and double that from Pug.
>>>> Not all ICVs are true stepper motors. Mine is a DC motor with two
>>>> windings (three terminals) which by varying the current in the two
>>>> coils can turn the armature though 90 degrees, enough to operate a
>>>> valve between fully closed and fully open.
>>>>
>>>> hth
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>
>>> Well, I think I've found the stepper motor! After searching on eBay
>>> I came up with a similar picture, but not identical. See
>>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Peugeot-Idle-valve-stepper-motor-A1678-A1459-B32-00_W0QQitemZ330211820370QQihZ014QQcategoryZ10406QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
>>> and/or <http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a3/74/f16c_1.JPG>. I think
>>> the part number is 1920 6W "Regulator MOT" in the parts CD.
>>>
>>> The difference is that the black part of the shaft on my one is about
>>> twice the length.
>>>
>>> The silver tip will rotate/move back and forth a tiny, tiny amount
>>> (more like play than intentional rotation as it's so tiny). The
>>> black bit on the shaft is a spring loaded collar over the inner shaft
>>> which connects to the silver tip. This black collar rotates fine,
>>> although with a little friction - more akin to the friction due to
>>> the end of the spring than anything else.
>>>
>>> Other that that, nothing appears to move. Cannot rotate the tip, and
>>> cannot work out how the collar could drive anything.
>>>
>>> My only conclusion is that this actually moves in and out, rather
>>> than rotates. Hence the lack of rotation of the tip, and a spring
>>> loaded collar around the shaft. Unfortunatately, this probably means
>>> its worm driven, and thus cannot be moved manually (I certainly
>>> couldn't!) - so difficult to be able to check whether it's working
>>> right.
>>>
>>> What would happen if I just wired it back into the car, but didn't
>>> mount it? Should I then expect it to move? What about the fact that
>>> there's a big hole where it used to be? I don't want to spend quite
>>> a bit of money on it if this one is perfectly fine if this one could
>>> be tested somehow.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> David
>>
>> Your ICV is completely different from mine which is shown here and it
>> works differently.
>> http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/9fingersphotos/IdleControlValve.jpg.
>>
>>
>> Find something about the same size as the actuator and use that to
>> control the engine speed manually. If the stepper is working properly,
>> then you should see it smoothly move from one extreme to the other
>> depending of whether the idle speed that your are controlling manually
>> is above or below the set speed.
>> Make sure the engine is not cold when you do thus and that the aircon
>> is off and that the throttle is fully closed. I.e. you must be
>> simulating tickover conditions.
>> Bob
>
> Well, I tried this - and as I turned the ignition on (not to start) I
> could see it move forward. As I started it, it moved out a bit further.
> As I turned it off, it moved out a bit further! As I tried to re-fit
> it, I noticed that it was now too long to fit into the hole! I thought
> I would screw it in as much as I could, and then hope that it might go
> backwards, and then I could tighten it. As I tried to do this, it all
> came apart!
>
> As I expected, the centre shaft was threaded with a threaded rotor to
> the motor, driving it forwards and backwards (linear actuator?) and it
> had driven itself off the thread. Impossible to screw back in, you have
> to turn the motor to draw it back in. In the end I got it in as far as
> I could, then held it against the engine block whilst the car was
> started a couple of times, ignition turned on and off and eventually it
> drew itself back into the motor.
>
> I did the screws up and started it - started first time and ran smoothly
> for a minute or two. Couple of small jumps up and down in the idle
> speed, but constant at those speeds for a while. Just need to take it
> for a test drive now.
>
> The stepper motor shaft and tip was very heavily coated in oily gunk.
> Couldn't see how it would cause a problem, but I did clean it well, and
> when it came apart, I cleaned the thread of the centre shaft. Where it
> fits inside, I couldn't work out what it pushed (couldn't feel anything
> of any resistance when prodding in there) but what I did put in there
> came out with a slight oily gunky coating (rather than just clean oil).
> I stuffed a bit of kitchen towel in there to try cleaning it a bit.
>
> Maybe I do need a new stepper motor - I don't know. Maybe it was just
> really dirty - have to see if the problem returns - or whether it's
> really fixed at all after a drive. Does make me wonder though, why it's
> so dirty in there though. It should only be oil, air and fuel going
> through there I'm guessing.
>
> Thanks
>
> D

Well, didn't sort it (still stalling, hard to start without foot on
accelerator). Long story short, it's now in a independent Peugeot
specialist garage who tried re-initialising the new stepper motor (may
not have done it properly myself) but didn't completely solve it.

Put diagnostics on it and said that it's giving 2 errors. Stepper motor
(which is hopefully now historic) and MAP sensor. He's going to try
replacing that to see whether it solves it.

Any idea whether it sounds right, and the sort of cost for the part?

Thanks

David

External Since: Jun 23, 2005 Posts: 46

David Hearn wrote:
> David Hearn wrote:
>> Bob Minchin wrote:
>>> David Hearn wrote:
>>>> Bob Minchin wrote:
>>>>> David Hearn wrote:
>>>>>> Tim.. wrote:
>>>>>>> "David Hearn" <dave.TakeThisOut@NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:6209p2F20rovqU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>>> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as
>>>>>>>> in today) idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel
>>>>>>>> it's going to stall (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth.
>>>>>>>> Had it's MOT done last October and passed emmisions fine.
>>>>>>>> Engine wise it's been okay. Slight oil leakage from the head
>>>>>>>> gasket area (front left side) pretty much the entire time we've
>>>>>>>> had it (6 years) - but not enough to cause us to have to top up
>>>>>>>> much between oil changes, some tapping from the cam shaft
>>>>>>>> (again, pretty much the whole time). No issues though with the
>>>>>>>> running of the engine, starts immediately first time every
>>>>>>>> time. Coolant has been okay-ish. No noticable mayo - but the
>>>>>>>> coolant has always looked a bit rusty between changes, and is
>>>>>>>> probably due for a change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per
>>>>>>>> year. Oil change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced
>>>>>>>> a year or so ago when it failed (causing weird electrical
>>>>>>>> issues) - but haven't checked this time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently
>>>>>>>> (last couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on
>>>>>>>> its own. I reset it each time I fill the tank and so noticed
>>>>>>>> when, after half a tank of fuel has been used, it's suddenly
>>>>>>>> reading only a couple of miles.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever
>>>>>>>> we pulled away from a junction, particuarly when changing up
>>>>>>>> gears, it seemed to reset - we saw this happen a few times.
>>>>>>>> Since then though, we've done about 15 miles without it
>>>>>>>> resetting, even though we've had to stop the engine for a bit,
>>>>>>>> and when re-started it was lumpy again. Might be a red-herring
>>>>>>>> - but might be helpful. I'm wondering if it's an electrical
>>>>>>>> problem (coil pack?) causing the trip counter to reset - which
>>>>>>>> may also affect the ignition - but I've got no real idea of
>>>>>>>> *why* it might cause it! Just a wild hypothesis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having
>>>>>>> the injector cleaned / replaced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've no idea whether it's single or multi point. The symptoms
>>>>>> appear immediately after starting the engine, even when warm.
>>>>>> After driving a couple of miles I don't notice any stuttering in
>>>>>> the idling. I tried it at some lights yesterday after driving for
>>>>>> a bit, immediately after restarting it was lumpy again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also noticed yesterday that it has started idling quite fast on
>>>>>> occasions - not all the time and went for a bit after stopping and
>>>>>> restarting the engine (but got the stuttering/lumpyness again).
>>>>>> No idea of the actual RPM as my rev counter has no dial (the
>>>>>> speedo motor died a while back and I swapped motors to get a
>>>>>> working speedo - cheaper than £400 for a new instrument cluster
>>>>>> from Peugeot).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness /
>>>>>>> stiffness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where's the stepper motor, and how would I check it? Wink

>>>>>>
>>>>>> D
>>>>> Highly likely to be the Idle control valve/stepper motor sticking.
>>>>> I read of these only having 50k miles life. (my 405 ICV is playing
>>>>> up at 88k miles)
>>>>> Look for an electrically controlled valve with hoses in and out
>>>>> effectively bypassing the throttle butterfly. Sometimes these can
>>>>> be cleaned with carb cleaner and last a little longer.
>>>>> New ones (for my 405) are about £50 from GSF and double that from Pug.
>>>>> Not all ICVs are true stepper motors. Mine is a DC motor with two
>>>>> windings (three terminals) which by varying the current in the two
>>>>> coils can turn the armature though 90 degrees, enough to operate a
>>>>> valve between fully closed and fully open.
>>>>>
>>>>> hth
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> Well, I think I've found the stepper motor! After searching on eBay
>>>> I came up with a similar picture, but not identical. See
>>>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Peugeot-Idle-valve-stepper-motor-A1678-A1459-B32-00_W0QQitemZ330211820370QQihZ014QQcategoryZ10406QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
>>>> and/or <http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a3/74/f16c_1.JPG>. I think
>>>> the part number is 1920 6W "Regulator MOT" in the parts CD.
>>>>
>>>> The difference is that the black part of the shaft on my one is
>>>> about twice the length.
>>>>
>>>> The silver tip will rotate/move back and forth a tiny, tiny amount
>>>> (more like play than intentional rotation as it's so tiny). The
>>>> black bit on the shaft is a spring loaded collar over the inner
>>>> shaft which connects to the silver tip. This black collar rotates
>>>> fine, although with a little friction - more akin to the friction
>>>> due to the end of the spring than anything else.
>>>>
>>>> Other that that, nothing appears to move. Cannot rotate the tip,
>>>> and cannot work out how the collar could drive anything.
>>>>
>>>> My only conclusion is that this actually moves in and out, rather
>>>> than rotates. Hence the lack of rotation of the tip, and a spring
>>>> loaded collar around the shaft. Unfortunatately, this probably
>>>> means its worm driven, and thus cannot be moved manually (I
>>>> certainly couldn't!) - so difficult to be able to check whether it's
>>>> working right.
>>>>
>>>> What would happen if I just wired it back into the car, but didn't
>>>> mount it? Should I then expect it to move? What about the fact
>>>> that there's a big hole where it used to be? I don't want to spend
>>>> quite a bit of money on it if this one is perfectly fine if this one
>>>> could be tested somehow.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>
>>> Your ICV is completely different from mine which is shown here and it
>>> works differently.
>>> http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/9fingersphotos/IdleControlValve.jpg.
>>>
>>>
>>> Find something about the same size as the actuator and use that to
>>> control the engine speed manually. If the stepper is working
>>> properly, then you should see it smoothly move from one extreme to
>>> the other depending of whether the idle speed that your are
>>> controlling manually is above or below the set speed.
>>> Make sure the engine is not cold when you do thus and that the aircon
>>> is off and that the throttle is fully closed. I.e. you must be
>>> simulating tickover conditions.
>>> Bob
>>
>> Well, I tried this - and as I turned the ignition on (not to start) I
>> could see it move forward. As I started it, it moved out a bit
>> further. As I turned it off, it moved out a bit further! As I tried
>> to re-fit it, I noticed that it was now too long to fit into the
>> hole! I thought I would screw it in as much as I could, and then hope
>> that it might go backwards, and then I could tighten it. As I tried
>> to do this, it all came apart!
>>
>> As I expected, the centre shaft was threaded with a threaded rotor to
>> the motor, driving it forwards and backwards (linear actuator?) and it
>> had driven itself off the thread. Impossible to screw back in, you
>> have to turn the motor to draw it back in. In the end I got it in as
>> far as I could, then held it against the engine block whilst the car
>> was started a couple of times, ignition turned on and off and
>> eventually it drew itself back into the motor.
>>
>> I did the screws up and started it - started first time and ran
>> smoothly for a minute or two. Couple of small jumps up and down in
>> the idle speed, but constant at those speeds for a while. Just need
>> to take it for a test drive now.
>>
>> The stepper motor shaft and tip was very heavily coated in oily gunk.
>> Couldn't see how it would cause a problem, but I did clean it well,
>> and when it came apart, I cleaned the thread of the centre shaft.
>> Where it fits inside, I couldn't work out what it pushed (couldn't
>> feel anything of any resistance when prodding in there) but what I did
>> put in there came out with a slight oily gunky coating (rather than
>> just clean oil). I stuffed a bit of kitchen towel in there to try
>> cleaning it a bit.
>>
>> Maybe I do need a new stepper motor - I don't know. Maybe it was just
>> really dirty - have to see if the problem returns - or whether it's
>> really fixed at all after a drive. Does make me wonder though, why
>> it's so dirty in there though. It should only be oil, air and fuel
>> going through there I'm guessing.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> D
>
> Well, didn't sort it (still stalling, hard to start without foot on
> accelerator). Long story short, it's now in a independent Peugeot
> specialist garage who tried re-initialising the new stepper motor (may
> not have done it properly myself) but didn't completely solve it.
>
> Put diagnostics on it and said that it's giving 2 errors. Stepper motor
> (which is hopefully now historic) and MAP sensor. He's going to try
> replacing that to see whether it solves it.
>
> Any idea whether it sounds right, and the sort of cost for the part?

They just called back with the price - just under £65 for the MAP sensor
(I think inc VAT), and total cost of about £100 (again I think inc VAT)
once the labour, testing etc is included.

Just checked GSF - don't know whether it's the right one, but they list
(N92538) 306 MAP sensor as £46.50 (£54 inc), so not too bad.

Sound right? I hope it solves it!

Thanks

D