Intake Gasket Failure Question

Jack L. Spratt wrote:

 > My understanding is GM claims that the DexCool coolant is responsible
 > for intake Gasket Failures.

No, GM does not think that Dexcool has anything to do with
gasket failures. The intake gasket failure is due to a poor design
that relies on low clamp loads and the fact that a technician
ought to know how to torque bolts and use loctite in these
particular applications.

 > My understanding is also that the intake failures have been happening
 > since around the mid 1990's.

Intake gasket failures on GM 60 degree engines have been happening
since they started making the engines in the mid 80's. When they first came
out in
the X-bodies and A-bodies....we were doing intake gaskets all the
time. Same problem.....coolant would get in the engine oil. Different
style of gasket....same basic end result...coolant in oil. There has also
always been a problem with oil leakage from the RTV end gaskets.
This is due to two problems.....poor preparation of the surfaces by
the technicians....and the fact that RTV gaskets will inevitably leak
no matter what you do.

Ian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

In article <YWA3e.3842$kk2.3241@twister.socal.rr.com>,
Geoff Welsh <geoffdubya.RemoveThis@some.rr.com> wrote:

 > Jack L. Spratt wrote:
 >
  > > My understanding is GM claims that the DexCool coolant is responsible for
  > > intake Gasket Failures.
 >
 > On the contrary. GM says Dex-Cool is god's gift to man. They wouldn't
 > still use it otherwise. Any problem is the owner's fault for not
 > checking the coolant's quality with a refractometer often enough.
 > (according to the AC Delco guy that taught the last after-work training
 > seminar I attended.)
 > GW

?????????

My refractometer only shows freeze point...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 18:22:04 GMT, "shiden_kai"
<violet_lightening_modified RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

 >Jack L. Spratt wrote:
 >
  >> My understanding is GM claims that the DexCool coolant is responsible
  >> for intake Gasket Failures.
 >
 >No, GM does not think that Dexcool has anything to do with
 >gasket failures. The intake gasket failure is due to a poor design
 >that relies on low clamp loads and the fact that a technician
 >ought to know how to torque bolts and use loctite in these
 >particular applications.
 >
  >> My understanding is also that the intake failures have been happening
  >> since around the mid 1990's.
 >
 >Intake gasket failures on GM 60 degree engines have been happening
 >since they started making the engines in the mid 80's. When they first came
 >out in
 >the X-bodies and A-bodies....we were doing intake gaskets all the
 >time. Same problem.....coolant would get in the engine oil. Different
 >style of gasket....same basic end result...coolant in oil. There has also
 >always been a problem with oil leakage from the RTV end gaskets.
 >This is due to two problems.....poor preparation of the surfaces by
 >the technicians....and the fact that RTV gaskets will inevitably leak
 >no matter what you do.
 >
 >Ian
 >
How can you blame it on the technicians or poor preparation on a
factory new engine? It is GM's fault - pure and simple. A design that
uses low clamping loads combined with gasket materials that cannot
seal under low clamp load conditions is poor design, no ifs, ands, or
buts about it.

Not fixing the root problem is the result of the bean counters looking
at the cost to repair the desihn vs the cost to repair under warranty,
taking the average lifespan into account.
Simply put, they figure it is cheaper to replace a few thousand
gaskets a year than to redisign the engine.

What they fail to take into account is the loss of sales due to
customer dis-satisfaction and anger.

And they wonder why they couldn't sell enough Oldsmobiles to make it
worth while retaining the marque - and now either Pontiac or Buick (or
possibly both) may well follow suite.

Used to be the cry was "kill all the lawyers".. Soon it will be "kill
all the accountants". Between accountants and lawyers, manufacturing
jobs are relentlessly being driven out of the USA , and close behind,
out of Canada as well.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

aarcuda69062 wrote:

 > In article <YWA3e.3842$kk2.3241@twister.socal.rr.com>,
 > Geoff Welsh <geoffdubya.RemoveThis@some.rr.com> wrote:
 >
 >
  >>Jack L. Spratt wrote:
  >>
  >>
   >>>My understanding is GM claims that the DexCool coolant is responsible for
   >>>intake Gasket Failures.
  >>
  >>On the contrary. GM says Dex-Cool is god's gift to man. They wouldn't
  >>still use it otherwise. Any problem is the owner's fault for not
  >>checking the coolant's quality with a refractometer often enough.
  >>(according to the AC Delco guy that taught the last after-work training
  >>seminar I attended.)
  >>GW
 >
 >
 > ?????????
 >
 > My refractometer only shows freeze point...
Which would, of course, be higher if the Dex-Cool to water ratio was
higher or lower than ideal. The statement from the Delco rep, may or
may not be hogwash, but supposedly....
If the Dex-Cool to water mix is not within a few points of the 50-50
range, the mixture becomes VERY acidic, and THAT is the owners fault for
not maintaining the 50-50 mix, not the Dex-Cools fault. The main
dilution of the ideal mix comes from air in the system.
How does air get in? Bad radiator cap.
GM never said they were five year caps, just five year coolant.
GW<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

Jack L. Spratt wrote:
 >
 > My understanding is GM claims that the DexCool coolant is responsible for
 > intake Gasket Failures.
 > My understanding is also that the intake failures have been happening since
 > around the mid 1990's. Isnt that before they even started using Dexcool? If
 > I am wrong on that then I stand corrected. In any case if GM new that the
 > Dexcool was the problem then why didnt they just have a recall to drain the
 > dexcool and refill all the cars with the green stuff? Would this be because
 > GM would then be admitting to a known problem? The problem has been around
 > for 10 years unaddressed year after year. GM used to make some of may
 > favorite cars...Hotrod Chevelles, GTOs Camaros etc. But GM ....you done
 > changed. I just dont know if I still want to be your friend.

I never read that GM said that about DeathCool.
I don't belive it and think it false information.
The problem has been around a lot longer than 10 years.
IMO, the 60 degree engine is a poor design for intake/head mating.
You might want to do some reading on the subject.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

When I was having problems I re-torqued the intake manifold bolts. There
were loose bolts. This seemed to have done the trick. This also worked on
the valve cover the oil pan and a part around the output shafts on the
transmission.


"Jack L. Spratt" <rburpee RemoveThis @cunn.com> wrote in message
news:114tlcfih7q0gb1@corp.supernews.com...
 > My understanding is GM claims that the DexCool coolant is responsible for
 > intake Gasket Failures.
 > My understanding is also that the intake failures have been happening
since
 > around the mid 1990's. Isnt that before they even started using Dexcool?
If
 > I am wrong on that then I stand corrected. In any case if GM new that the
 > Dexcool was the problem then why didnt they just have a recall to drain
the
 > dexcool and refill all the cars with the green stuff? Would this be
because
 > GM would then be admitting to a known problem? The problem has been around
 > for 10 years unaddressed year after year. GM used to make some of may
 > favorite cars...Hotrod Chevelles, GTOs Camaros etc. But GM ....you done
 > changed. I just dont know if I still want to be your friend.
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

nospam.clare.nce DeleteThis @sny.der.on.ca wrote:

 > How can you blame it on the technicians or poor preparation on a
 > factory new engine? It is GM's fault - pure and simple. A design that
 > uses low clamping loads combined with gasket materials that cannot
 > seal under low clamp load conditions is poor design, no ifs, ands, or
 > buts about it.

I was talking about the RTV section of the gasket. Eventually
they all do leak, but I and other techs that I know that take the
time to use RTV properly don't see the intake gasket back leaking
from the RTV very often. But the one's that dont take care, usually
are re-doing them.

The entire engine design is suspect....but you are right, bean counters
will do us in.

Ian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

I am a member of this club, 98 Lumina 3.1 once when it was under warranty
and now again at almost 80k! I plan on replacing the coolant fluid with the
good old fashion Prestone green antifreeze. Does anyone think all this
trouble may be from the new dex coolant or just crappy design?


"shiden_kai" <violet_lightening_modified DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bXW3e.892058$8l.44957@pd7tw1no...
 > nospam.clare.nce DeleteThis @sny.der.on.ca wrote:
 >
  >> How can you blame it on the technicians or poor preparation on a
  >> factory new engine? It is GM's fault - pure and simple. A design that
  >> uses low clamping loads combined with gasket materials that cannot
  >> seal under low clamp load conditions is poor design, no ifs, ands, or
  >> buts about it.
 >
 > I was talking about the RTV section of the gasket. Eventually
 > they all do leak, but I and other techs that I know that take the
 > time to use RTV properly don't see the intake gasket back leaking
 > from the RTV very often. But the one's that dont take care, usually
 > are re-doing them.
 >
 > The entire engine design is suspect....but you are right, bean counters
 > will do us in.
 >
 > Ian
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

In article <bXW3e.892058$8l.44957@pd7tw1no>,
violet_lightening_modified.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com says...
 > nospam.clare.nce.TakeThisOut@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
 >
  > > How can you blame it on the technicians or poor preparation on a
  > > factory new engine? It is GM's fault - pure and simple. A design that
  > > uses low clamping loads combined with gasket materials that cannot
  > > seal under low clamp load conditions is poor design, no ifs, ands, or
  > > buts about it.
 >
 > I was talking about the RTV section of the gasket. Eventually
 > they all do leak, but I and other techs that I know that take the
 > time to use RTV properly don't see the intake gasket back leaking
 > from the RTV very often. But the one's that dont take care, usually
 > are re-doing them.
 >
 > The entire engine design is suspect....but you are right, bean counters
 > will do us in.
 >
 > Ian

After cleaning the surfaces real good I use McKanica red High Temp RTV
around the corners of the intake as well as round the coolant passages
on the gasket. With some thread locker and that McKanica RTV there are
no repeat leaks. Great stuff!

In article <blX3e.403$l13.202@fe04.lga>, pnsman64.TakeThisOut@charter.net says...
 > I am a member of this club, 98 Lumina 3.1 once when it was under warranty
 > and now again at almost 80k! I plan on replacing the coolant fluid with the
 > good old fashion Prestone green antifreeze. Does anyone think all this
 > trouble may be from the new dex coolant or just crappy design?

In my experiance Dexcool is still far better if the leaks are repaired
correctly. When I remove plastic gaskets that have been running
conventional green coolant I find most of the plastic material is
missing and whats left of the gasket is very brittle. I also find a lot
of pock marks in the aluminum which will never re-seal without good RTV.
However the rubber beads built into those gaskets are usually swelled up
which is the "only" advantage the silicon based coolants give you.
(until they blow out from lack of plastic material)

Dexcool contains a plasticizer which softens up the plastic gaskets ever
so slightly. For the 60deg motors this is a huge problem considering
they dont have a very good clamping load on the gaskets and the gaskets
are taller and thinner around the passages. For the 3800's lower intake
gaskets this isnt much of an issue.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

Nice dexcool article you mentioned.

I have a question about
coolant recall for my 2000 Buick regal (LS, nonturbo).
I have been changing dexcool every year and it has 65000
miles. GM is sending me recall notice every 3 months
to care recall. The recall will expire in July 2005.

My question is since I have been changing coolant
regularly and no overheating problem, do you think
I should still take the care to delaer or just ignore the recall.
And if you can explain what's in the recall besides
tightening the bolts.

DonW wrote:
 >
 > "pnsman64" <pnsman64 DeleteThis @charter.net <mailto:pnsman64@charter.net>> wrote in
 > message news:blX3e.403$l13.202@fe04.lga...
  > >I am a member of this club, 98 Lumina 3.1 once when it was under warranty
  > > and now again at almost 80k! I plan on replacing the coolant fluid
 > with the
  > > good old fashion Prestone green antifreeze. Does anyone think all this
  > > trouble may be from the new dex coolant or just crappy design?
 >
 > I've had the top part of the engine off a couple times replacing
 > injectors and the lower manifold gasket. There was very little
 > corrosion anywhere. I have changed the Dexcool on 2 1/2 - 3 yr.
 > intervals and changed the pressure cap to one having a spring-loaded
 > relief per item 4 in this article: Dexcool Article
 > <http://www.imcool.com/articles/antifreeze-coolant/dexcool-macs2001.htm>
 > So, based on my observations I'd choose crappy design.
 > Ian has posted info recently on a new gasket released and fastener specs
 > for this engine family. Don't know if there's enough history yet to
 > know if it fixes the problem.
 > My vehicle was a 98 Pontiac Montana.
 >
 >
 >
  > >
  > >
  > > "shiden_kai" <violet_lightening_modified DeleteThis @hotmail.com
 > <mailto:violet_lightening_modified@hotmail.com>> wrote in message
  > > news:bXW3e.892058$8l.44957@pd7tw1no...
   > >> nospam.clare.nce DeleteThis @sny.der.on.ca
 > <mailto:nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca> wrote:
   > >>
   > >>> How can you blame it on the technicians or poor preparation on a
   > >>> factory new engine? It is GM's fault - pure and simple. A design that
   > >>> uses low clamping loads combined with gasket materials that cannot
   > >>> seal under low clamp load conditions is poor design, no ifs, ands, or
   > >>> buts about it.
   > >>
   > >> I was talking about the RTV section of the gasket. Eventually
   > >> they all do leak, but I and other techs that I know that take the
   > >> time to use RTV properly don't see the intake gasket back leaking
   > >> from the RTV very often. But the one's that dont take care, usually
   > >> are re-doing them.
   > >>
   > >> The entire engine design is suspect....but you are right, bean counters
   > >> will do us in.
   > >>
   > >> Ian
   > >>
  > >
  > ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

WOW I never realized all the trouble with these engines. I am amazed they
would let this known problem continue for so long.

"Jack L. Spratt" <rburpee.RemoveThis@cunn.com> wrote in message
news:114tlcfih7q0gb1@corp.supernews.com...
 > My understanding is GM claims that the DexCool coolant is responsible for
 > intake Gasket Failures.
 > My understanding is also that the intake failures have been happening
 > since
 > around the mid 1990's. Isnt that before they even started using Dexcool?
 > If
 > I am wrong on that then I stand corrected. In any case if GM new that the
 > Dexcool was the problem then why didnt they just have a recall to drain
 > the
 > dexcool and refill all the cars with the green stuff? Would this be
 > because
 > GM would then be admitting to a known problem? The problem has been around
 > for 10 years unaddressed year after year. GM used to make some of may
 > favorite cars...Hotrod Chevelles, GTOs Camaros etc. But GM ....you done
 > changed. I just dont know if I still want to be your friend.
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

In article <xEb4e.4193$6w.4011@fe07.lga>,
"pnsman64" <pnsman64.TakeThisOut@charter.net> wrote:

 > WOW I never realized all the trouble with these engines. I am amazed they
 > would let this known problem continue for so long.


Why not?
The small block Chevy camshaft problem went on for decades...<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question 

"aarcuda69062" <nonelson.RemoveThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:nonelson-BAE0CD.12351504042005@newsclstr01.news.prodigy.com...
 > In article <xEb4e.4193$6w.4011@fe07.lga>,
 > "pnsman64" <pnsman64.RemoveThis@charter.net> wrote:
 >
  > > WOW I never realized all the trouble with these engines. I am amazed
they
  > > would let this known problem continue for so long.
 >
 >
 > Why not?
 > The small block Chevy camshaft problem went on for decades...


What problem are you referring to?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Intake Gasket Failure Question