Hyundai preformance on icy raods

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:I5Axj.4517$A93.4348@trndny08...
>>
>>> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are
>>> dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as
>>> "all season". As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've
>>> had to use many of them in snow and most of the performance of the
>>> tires on them have range from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright
>>> dangerous". NONE of them have been what I would call good performers
>>> in snow, compared to my winter tires. Keep in mind that all of these
>>> cars have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in
>>> good shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite
>>> substantial.
>>
>> I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk
>> ASR's out there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard
>> to find a nice soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other
>> than cruising down dry interstates. They hydroplane badly, they
>> corner badly, and they are as useless as slicks in the snow. That
>> said - I've had no trouble finding perfectly acceptable ASR's that
>> serve me well year round.
>>
>
> And fleet rental cars don't exactly come with top'o the line tires.

That's certainly true, but they typically come with the same tires that
the same vehicle is equipped with for consumer purchases. The few that
I've actually looked at - generally because I was trying to figure out
what was wrong with them - have all been major brand tires and popular
models.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>>> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't
>>> need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any
>>> detailed figures on USA tire sales by type, but I'll bet my 2% figure
>>> isn't far off as the fraction of total tire sales annually that are
>>> winter tires.
>>
>> Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of
>> buying trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of
>> people that buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one. I
>> could easily argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need for
>> an SUV. I could also reasonably argue that many - if not most - SUV
>> buyers would be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set
>> of snow tires instead of an SUV.
>
> Neither is your opinion about snow tires any indicator of need or
> efficiency or tread life.

If it were merely an opinion, that would be true. I have the experiences
to back it up.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>> DonC wrote:
>>>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting.TakeThisOut@epix.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:06Kwj.88$555.1273@news1.epix.net...
>>>>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> I'm not against snow tires at all, I just don't need them ...
>>>>>>>> like 98% of the rest of the folks in the USA. There are 2% who
>>>>>>>> need them and they should buy and use them.
>>>>>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt",
>>>>>>> that's a pretty ridiculous statement.
>>>>>> Maybe not. Back in the 50's, I remember putting full chains on my
>>>>>> father's car for the first couple of days after a snow. Main
>>>>>> roads were poorly plowed, side streets were not plowed at all. We
>>>>>> lived in Philadelphia and a 6" snow was a lot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've since moved to Connecticut and 10" to 12" is common. I've
>>>>>> never thought about snow tires. Why? They plow frequently, they
>>>>>> plow well, they treat the streets. In the worst storms here, if I
>>>>>> can get out of my driveway, I can get most anyplace. Like
>>>>>> anyplace else, you have to use common sense and slow down in
>>>>>> snow. If there is slick ice, no car is going to fare well, no
>>>>>> matter what tire is on it.
>>>>> Well, studded tires help a lot on ice. Although, I haven't
>>>>> felt the need for studs since the 70s.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt
>>>>
>>>> Studded tires have been banned in some states due to the damage they
>>>> do to roads. I know Michigan banned them. In any case I never got
>>>> them and never really needed them there.
>>>
>>> All true, but the fact remains that the statement about "no matter
>>> what tire is on it" is simply false.
>>
>> That's true, but it's a case of "the pot calling the kettle black"
>> considering some of the blatantly false and/or misleading statements
>> you've made in this thread.
>
> I have not made a single false or misleading statement.

If you believe that, you're kidding yourself. Go back and read the
nonsense you've written.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

DaToteman wrote:
> I just want to stick my two cents in. I am picky about my tires and drive
> about 25000 miles per year which is mostly drive back and forth to work in
> all kinds of lousy weather. Snow, Rain, Ice etc. and have found that
> Performance All Seasons are the way to go. They perform much better in the
> wet and as far as I can tell in the snow. The original tires that come on
> most new cars are junk, IE Michelin MXV4 - plane like no ones business. I
> currently have Michelin Exalta A/Ss which I am quite happy with. BTW the BF
> Goodrich Traction TA are not bad either. Check out the user reviews on
> various type of tires at www.tirerack.com

FWIW, I'm perfectly happy with ASRs as three season tires, which is
really what they are. If I was driving as aggressively as I once did,
I'd want something stickier, but these days I'd rather not sacrifice wet
weather safety for dry weather performance.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Reading through this entire thread of testosterone has at least tought me
one lesson: Brian, you are not comprehending what people are saying here.
NO ONE SO FAR has disputed the fact that snow tires are better in snow and
ice. All everyone is saying is that they don't need them.

I work for a utility company and I HAVE to get to work in the worst
conditions. I've also never had a problem driving in snow and ice that was
below the front air dam on any car I have owned.

The biggest problem in these conditions is avoiding the idiots that don't
know how to drive in the snow and ice.

The only time I have ever needed anything more than a good ASR was in 1992,
when here in NJ we were encrusted in ice for several weeks. I went out and
got some studded snows (on my companies dime I might add) and they helped
me out tremendously. That was the only time I've ever NEEDED anything like
that.

In the blizzard of 1996, I drove my car through 36" of fresh white powder
in the Princeton, NJ, area. I was actually surprised I made it, but it
went well. All on ASR's.

What exactly do you do in the snow and ice to need snow tires? I mean, I
am a fairly assertive driver most of the time and there is nothing I can't
do in the snow.

Just last week we had 6" (a surprise) of the white stuff and I was driving
50-55 MPH on the highway, easily passing many SUV's in the snow-packed left
lane. Do you need to go faster than that in the snow???

Eric
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>>> Darby OGill wrote:
>>>>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping
>>>>> an extra set
>>>>>> of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And
>>>>>> accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper
>>>>>> Michigan where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the
>>>>>> rest of the state.
>>>>> I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother
>>>>> used to say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank
>>>>> full as it does empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel
>>>>> wheels, it doesn't cost any more to employ them. Miles put on snows
>>>>> are miles not put on regular tires....BTW how many of us use summer
>>>>> tires as opposed to all season radials, and is anyone troiubled by
>>>>> that performance compromise (wet weather, braking and handling).
>>>>> There, I'm done beating the dead horse<grin>.....I guess the group
>>>>> does largely agree on one thing- The OP faulting Hyundai is mostly
>>>>> without merit.(I think the touchy throttle observation was a good
>>>>> one though)
>>>>
>>>> And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much faster than
>>>> an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow tire is
>>>> more costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire.
>>>
>>> That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30
>>> years, you have nothing to base that conclusion on.
>>
>> It simply is true:
>>
>> http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tires-auto-parts/tires/tire-so...r-winte
>>
>>
>> http://www.consumersearch.com/www/automotive/snow-tires/review.html
>
> Did you even read either of these articles??? Here's the first paragraph
> from the second one:

Yes, I read them both.


> "Even if your car has traction control or an ABS braking system, those
> features won't improve traction on snow and ice. Experts at The Tire
> Rack say only snow tires will actually improve grip on snow and ice.
> Although all-wheel-drive or front-wheel-drive is an advantage, you'll
> still improve safety by swapping your summer or all-season tires for
> winter ones. This is because snow tires have special tread designs that
> help them bite into the snow. Snow tires also use a softer rubber
> compound, so they stay flexible at lower temperatures."
>
> That certainly doesn't support your anti-winter tire assertions.

I've never made an anti-winter tire assertion. I'm not against them,
I've said they are better than all-season tires in snow and ice, but
I've also said that all-seasons are more than adequate for my needs and
thus I don't need winter tires.


>> Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason.
>
> They lack a tread wear rating because they're not designed for
> year-round use.

And because they wear so quickly consumers would be shocked at the numbers.



>> I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, but
>> I do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster than
>> all-season tires.
>
> On your truck I can believe it, but on cars it's not true, at least not
> in the absolute terms you proclaim. I can give you a perfect example,
> the tires on my Elantra. The car is an '04 and I've driven both sets of
> tires for four seasons (the winter season isn't over yet, but it's close
> enough). My summer tires - the stock Michelins that came on the car -
> are completely worn out and must be replaced. Actually, they really
> should have been replaced before last season, but they just passed
> inspection. In contrast, my winter tires still have 2/3 of their
> original depth. They will last at least another season and perhaps two.

Tires wear by the mile not by the season.



>> Winter tire design and
>>> rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that
>>> they use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires", they're
>>> quite durable in the colder winter temperatures they're designed for.
>>> They're often MORE durable that typical soft summer "performance"
>>> compounds. My winter tires last at least as many seasons as my summer
>>> tires and they typically cost less. Once you amortize the cost of the
>>> extra set of wheels, it's all gravy (I had one set of wheels that I
>>> used on four cars between '84 and '04). Unless one drives
>>> aggressively year-round when on dry pavement, there is no significant
>>> downside to winter tires. There ARE significant safety and
>>> performance advantages to them in nasty winter conditions. There
>>> isn't any inconvenience, either. As Darby pointed out, instead of
>>> rotating your tires twice per year (which we should be doing anyway),
>>> you just swap from summers to winters and vice versa - rotating them
>>> whenever they're reinstalled, of course. If making the switch forces
>>> people to rotate their tires when they might not do it otherwise,
>>> their summer tires will last longer and they'll actually see some
>>> cost saving from it.
>>
>> I have no doubt that snow tires will outlast performance summer tires
>> as they have VERY soft compounds and absolutely lousy tread life.
>> However, they will not outwear a good all-season tire, not even
>> close. Post even one credible reference that suggests otherwise.
>
> Obviously, you're wrong, as the results on my car prove. I don't need a
> reference, I have the tires to prove it. If it makes you happy, I'll
> send you pictures of both. Your argument is simply a fabrication to
> support your bias against winter tires.

You haven't provided any data to prove anything. You have provided no
mileages for the life of any tires, just "seasons" which is irrelevant.


>>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who
>>> live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of
>>> three things:
>>>
>>> - I don't want to
>>>
>>> - I don't care
>>>
>>> - I'm too cheap
>>
>> No, they boil down to "I don't need them." It is as simple as that.
>>
>> A question for you, do you drive only all-wheel drive vehicles?
>
> Don't change the subject. I've already covered that ground in another post.

You aren't consistent. If you want the best possible performance, then
you must drive AWD along with your snow tires. If you aren't driving
AWD vehicles, then you are settling for less than the best.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being
>>>> able to stop, avoid, etc.
>>>
>>> That's exactly my point. Snow tires improve performance in ALL of
>>> those categories in bad conditions.
>>>
>>>>> Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive.
>>>>> All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that
>>>>> every NEEDS it. Same with snow tires.
>>>
>>> No, it's not like that at all. The truth is that very few people
>>> actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive
>>> benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides.
>>>
>>> What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that
>>> handles well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since
>>> the tires are at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and
>>> they're a definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in
>>> the case of some higher-end AWD systems in cars.
>>>
>>>> Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that
>>>> since 4WD will take off better in snow, move through snow better
>>>> with 7 1/2 feet of steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push the
>>>> weight of that snow ahead of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD must
>>>> be better in snow. There are downsides to the confidence that
>>>> falsely creeps into people's minds when there are niche benefits to
>>>> things.
>>>
>>> Absolutely! It's what convinces people to spend thousands of extra
>>> dollars on vehicles that are no better in the snow - and often worse
>>> - than a FWD car with a few hundred dollars worth of snow tires on
>>> it. It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like
>>> idiots in bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their
>>> roofs.
>>
>> http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2005/winter-driv...-405-wi
>
>
> You didn't read this one either, did you? It supports my assertions much
> more than yours.

Yes, I read it and it supports my assertions just fine.

What part of "The best were the all-wheel-drive cars, which reached
almost 20 mph sooner, on average, than the front-drive cars equipped
with winter tires." didn't you understand?

And what part of "Our advice. Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if you
live in a snowy area or want added peace of mind. For maximum traction,
equip it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a
set of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four
wheels for balanced handling. Remove them after winter, since these
tires wear quickly on dry roads (plan on about three winters of use).
And be sure to opt for ABS on any vehicle." didn't you catch?

AWD is best in snowy areas. Winter tires should SUFFICE (emphasis added
so you can't miss it) in less-snow areas. "These tires (referring to
winter tires) WEAR QUICKLY on dry roads. Again, emphasis added since
you missed this the first time around.

The only thing they left out is that all-season tires also suffice in
most areas of the country.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom.DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:I5Axj.4517$A93.4348@trndny08...
>>
>>> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are
>>> dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as
>>> "all season". As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've
>>> had to use many of them in snow and most of the performance of the
>>> tires on them have range from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright
>>> dangerous". NONE of them have been what I would call good performers
>>> in snow, compared to my winter tires. Keep in mind that all of these
>>> cars have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in
>>> good shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite
>>> substantial.
>>
>> I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk
>> ASR's out there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard
>> to find a nice soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other
>> than cruising down dry interstates. They hydroplane badly, they
>> corner badly, and they are as useless as slicks in the snow.
>
> That's exactly what my experience has been.
>
>> That said - I've had no trouble finding perfectly acceptable ASR's
>> that serve me well year round.
>
> I certainly wish the cars I've been forced to drive had something like
> that on them. I have yet to find ANY ASR that comes close to the
> performance of winter tires in snow. I have to wonder if you might think
> differently if you had the chance to do back-to-back comparisons on the
> same car(s), as I have? That always seems to be the stumbling block with
> most people. As I've said before, the people I've convinced to try
> winter tires have ALL been stunned at the difference. Essentially, they
> didn't realize what they were missing, which is understandable. Tire
> companies have done a great job of selling the "all season" myth.

There is no myth so it must have been a REALLY hard sell!

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't
>>>> need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any
>>>> detailed figures on USA tire sales by type, but I'll bet my 2%
>>>> figure isn't far off as the fraction of total tire sales annually
>>>> that are winter tires.
>>>
>>> Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of
>>> buying trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of
>>> people that buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one.
>>> I could easily argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need
>>> for an SUV. I could also reasonably argue that many - if not most -
>>> SUV buyers would be better off in many ways if they bought a car and
>>> a set of snow tires instead of an SUV.
>>
>> Neither is your opinion about snow tires any indicator of need or
>> efficiency or tread life.
>
> If it were merely an opinion, that would be true. I have the experiences
> to back it up.

Your experiences are only the basis for your opinion. Many more of us
have experiences exactly counter to yours. I assert that the odds are
very high then that the majority of us are correct and you are not when
you assert that everyone needs winter tires.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>>> DonC wrote:
>>>>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting DeleteThis @epix.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:06Kwj.88$555.1273@news1.epix.net...
>>>>>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>>>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> I'm not against snow tires at all, I just don't need them ...
>>>>>>>>> like 98% of the rest of the folks in the USA. There are 2% who
>>>>>>>>> need them and they should buy and use them.
>>>>>>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt",
>>>>>>>> that's a pretty ridiculous statement.
>>>>>>> Maybe not. Back in the 50's, I remember putting full chains on
>>>>>>> my father's car for the first couple of days after a snow. Main
>>>>>>> roads were poorly plowed, side streets were not plowed at all.
>>>>>>> We lived in Philadelphia and a 6" snow was a lot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've since moved to Connecticut and 10" to 12" is common. I've
>>>>>>> never thought about snow tires. Why? They plow frequently, they
>>>>>>> plow well, they treat the streets. In the worst storms here, if
>>>>>>> I can get out of my driveway, I can get most anyplace. Like
>>>>>>> anyplace else, you have to use common sense and slow down in
>>>>>>> snow. If there is slick ice, no car is going to fare well, no
>>>>>>> matter what tire is on it.
>>>>>> Well, studded tires help a lot on ice. Although, I haven't
>>>>>> felt the need for studs since the 70s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>
>>>>> Studded tires have been banned in some states due to the damage
>>>>> they do to roads. I know Michigan banned them. In any case I never
>>>>> got them and never really needed them there.
>>>>
>>>> All true, but the fact remains that the statement about "no matter
>>>> what tire is on it" is simply false.
>>>
>>> That's true, but it's a case of "the pot calling the kettle black"
>>> considering some of the blatantly false and/or misleading statements
>>> you've made in this thread.
>>
>> I have not made a single false or misleading statement.
>
> If you believe that, you're kidding yourself. Go back and read the
> nonsense you've written.

Point out even one false or misleading statement I have made.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Eric G. wrote:
> Reading through this entire thread of testosterone has at least tought me
> one lesson: Brian, you are not comprehending what people are saying here.
> NO ONE SO FAR has disputed the fact that snow tires are better in snow and
> ice. All everyone is saying is that they don't need them.

You have summed up Brian pretty well. He reads what we write, but then
claims we have made an argument we haven't made simply because he
refuses to accept what we actually wrote. And I've posted several
references supporting my position and he's posted none supporting his
.... mainly because there is no data that supports his claim that
everyone needs winter tires.

And he refuses to take his own argument to its logical conclusion which
is that he should have both winter tires AND AWD if he is really
concerned about the best possible winter performance.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>>>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>>>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being
>>>>> able to stop, avoid, etc.
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly my point. Snow tires improve performance in ALL of
>>>> those categories in bad conditions.
>>>>
>>>>>> Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel
>>>>>> drive. All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean
>>>>>> that every NEEDS it. Same with snow tires.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's not like that at all. The truth is that very few people
>>>> actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive
>>>> benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides.
>>>>
>>>> What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that
>>>> handles well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since
>>>> the tires are at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and
>>>> they're a definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in
>>>> the case of some higher-end AWD systems in cars.
>>>>
>>>>> Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that
>>>>> since 4WD will take off better in snow, move through snow better
>>>>> with 7 1/2 feet of steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push
>>>>> the weight of that snow ahead of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD
>>>>> must be better in snow. There are downsides to the confidence that
>>>>> falsely creeps into people's minds when there are niche benefits to
>>>>> things.
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely! It's what convinces people to spend thousands of extra
>>>> dollars on vehicles that are no better in the snow - and often worse
>>>> - than a FWD car with a few hundred dollars worth of snow tires on
>>>> it. It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like
>>>> idiots in bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their
>>>> roofs.
>>>
>>> http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2005/winter-driv...-405-wi
>>
>>
>>
>> You didn't read this one either, did you? It supports my assertions
>> much more than yours.
>
> Yes, I read it and it supports my assertions just fine.
>
> What part of "The best were the all-wheel-drive cars, which reached
> almost 20 mph sooner, on average, than the front-drive cars equipped
> with winter tires." didn't you understand?

If the main criteria is who can get to 20 mph the fastest then yes AWD
is the answer. Unfortunately, there is more to driving then who can be
quickest. I would rather be able to avoid an incident through steering
or braking as opposed to out-accelerating it. There is nothing more
satisfying then seeing an SUV, that has blown by me on a snow covered
road, in the median a short time later. HMMM... guess that AWD/4WD
didn't help you when you had to do something besides accelerate.

>
> And what part of "Our advice. Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if you
> live in a snowy area or want added peace of mind. For maximum traction,
> equip it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a
> set of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four
> wheels for balanced handling. Remove them after winter, since these
> tires wear quickly on dry roads (plan on about three winters of use).
> And be sure to opt for ABS on any vehicle." didn't you catch?
>
HUH? Is this an endorsement for winter tires?


> AWD is best in snowy areas. Winter tires should SUFFICE (emphasis added
> so you can't miss it) in less-snow areas. "These tires (referring to
> winter tires) WEAR QUICKLY on dry roads. Again, emphasis added since
> you missed this the first time around.
>
> The only thing they left out is that all-season tires also suffice in
> most areas of the country.
>
> Matt
>
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

jp103 wrote:

Is this Brian under an assumed name?
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods