Hyundai preformance on icy raods

Matt Whiting wrote:

> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't
> need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any
> detailed figures on USA tire sales by type, but I'll bet my 2% figure
> isn't far off as the fraction of total tire sales annually that are
> winter tires.

Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of buying
trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of people that
buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one. I could easily
argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need for an SUV. I
could also reasonably argue that many - if not most - SUV buyers would
be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set of snow tires
instead of an SUV.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Matt Whiting wrote:
> DonC wrote:
>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting DeleteThis @epix.net> wrote in message
>> news:06Kwj.88$555.1273@news1.epix.net...
>>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> I'm not against snow tires at all, I just don't need them ... like
>>>>>> 98% of the rest of the folks in the USA. There are 2% who need
>>>>>> them and they should buy and use them.
>>>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's
>>>>> a pretty ridiculous statement.
>>>> Maybe not. Back in the 50's, I remember putting full chains on my
>>>> father's car for the first couple of days after a snow. Main roads
>>>> were poorly plowed, side streets were not plowed at all. We lived
>>>> in Philadelphia and a 6" snow was a lot.
>>>>
>>>> I've since moved to Connecticut and 10" to 12" is common. I've
>>>> never thought about snow tires. Why? They plow frequently, they
>>>> plow well, they treat the streets. In the worst storms here, if I
>>>> can get out of my driveway, I can get most anyplace. Like anyplace
>>>> else, you have to use common sense and slow down in snow. If there
>>>> is slick ice, no car is going to fare well, no matter what tire is
>>>> on it.
>>> Well, studded tires help a lot on ice. Although, I haven't felt
>>> the need for studs since the 70s.
>>>
>>> Matt
>>
>> Studded tires have been banned in some states due to the damage they
>> do to roads. I know Michigan banned them. In any case I never got
>> them and never really needed them there.
>
> All true, but the fact remains that the statement about "no matter what
> tire is on it" is simply false.

That's true, but it's a case of "the pot calling the kettle black"
considering some of the blatantly false and/or misleading statements
you've made in this thread.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

I just want to stick my two cents in. I am picky about my tires and drive
about 25000 miles per year which is mostly drive back and forth to work in
all kinds of lousy weather. Snow, Rain, Ice etc. and have found that
Performance All Seasons are the way to go. They perform much better in the
wet and as far as I can tell in the snow. The original tires that come on
most new cars are junk, IE Michelin MXV4 - plane like no ones business. I
currently have Michelin Exalta A/Ss which I am quite happy with. BTW the BF
Goodrich Traction TA are not bad either. Check out the user reviews on
various type of tires at www.tirerack.com

For the Record my previous car was a 92 Accord and went thru many sets /
brands of tires and was never completely happy. My Tib feels much more
stable in lousy conditions than the accord ever did.
ME

<Old_Timer> wrote in message
news:eoe9s3dbo0lebql02fav27ptgc3mqj2rgp@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:29:00 -0600, "Dan K" <danielgkNOSPAM.RemoveThis@visi.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Our XG350 is horrible on icy roads. We have experienced this twice now,
>>once while on vacation where the condo was on a hill that got iced up, and
>>now again while on vacation when we went through an ice storm. The
>>vehicle
>>has never behaved badly on snowy roads, or slushy roads, just ice. The
>>vehicle has brand new Briggstone Turansa tires that I've used on other
>>vehicles and they have been great on ice. I know there is a lot of weight
>>on the front wheels (due to the tires always looking like they need air)
>>so
>>I would expect that the car would be good on ice, but no. Anybody out
>>there
>>have similar experience with Hyundai and ice? Any ideas what to do about
>>it? I run my tires high (35-40 psi), would lowering that help?
>>
>>BTW I'm in Minnesota, so I know how to drive on snow and ice.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>
>
> All these messages about driving the Hyundai on ice and snow brought
> to mind an entry in the Owner's manual for my 200- Sonata GLS v6.
>
> It clearly states "Tire chains should not be used on P205/60/ R15
> tires. With these tires there is not sufficient clearance for chains
> installation between the tires and other vehicle components and damage
> may result"
>
> Old_Timer
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Darby OGill wrote:
>>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an
>>> extra set
>>>> of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And
>>>> accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper
>>>> Michigan where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the
>>>> rest of the state.
>>> I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother
>>> used to say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank
>>> full as it does empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel
>>> wheels, it doesn't cost any more to employ them. Miles put on snows
>>> are miles not put on regular tires....BTW how many of us use summer
>>> tires as opposed to all season radials, and is anyone troiubled by
>>> that performance compromise (wet weather, braking and handling).
>>> There, I'm done beating the dead horse<grin>.....I guess the group
>>> does largely agree on one thing- The OP faulting Hyundai is mostly
>>> without merit.(I think the touchy throttle observation was a good one
>>> though)
>>
>> And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much faster than
>> an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow tire is more
>> costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire.
>
> That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30 years,
> you have nothing to base that conclusion on.

It simply is true:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tires-auto-parts/tires/tire-so...r-winte

http://www.consumersearch.com/www/automotive/snow-tires/review.html

Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason.

I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, but I
do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster than
all-season tires.


Winter tire design and
> rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that they
> use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires", they're quite
> durable in the colder winter temperatures they're designed for. They're
> often MORE durable that typical soft summer "performance" compounds. My
> winter tires last at least as many seasons as my summer tires and they
> typically cost less. Once you amortize the cost of the extra set of
> wheels, it's all gravy (I had one set of wheels that I used on four cars
> between '84 and '04). Unless one drives aggressively year-round when on
> dry pavement, there is no significant downside to winter tires. There
> ARE significant safety and performance advantages to them in nasty
> winter conditions. There isn't any inconvenience, either. As Darby
> pointed out, instead of rotating your tires twice per year (which we
> should be doing anyway), you just swap from summers to winters and vice
> versa - rotating them whenever they're reinstalled, of course. If making
> the switch forces people to rotate their tires when they might not do it
> otherwise, their summer tires will last longer and they'll actually see
> some cost saving from it.

I have no doubt that snow tires will outlast performance summer tires as
they have VERY soft compounds and absolutely lousy tread life. However,
they will not outwear a good all-season tire, not even close. Post even
one credible reference that suggests otherwise.


> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who
> live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of
> three things:
>
> - I don't want to
>
> - I don't care
>
> - I'm too cheap

No, they boil down to "I don't need them." It is as simple as that.

A question for you, do you drive only all-wheel drive vehicles?

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

DonC wrote:
> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom.RemoveThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:p%zxj.3428$my3.1411@trndny06...
>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who live
>> in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of three
>> things:
>>
>> - I don't want to
>>
>> - I don't care
>>
>> - I'm too cheap
>
> Add "I don't need them to drive safely"
>
> It doesn't "really boil down to ..." your biases.
>
> If I've driven in northern snow for almost 50 years -- many before
> front-wheel drive or radial tires -- without any significant problem, none
> of things you boiled this down to do not apply. Maybe "I don't need to"
> would be a better addition to your list.

Brian,

How does if feel to be right when the rest of the world is wrong? It
seems like the sentiment is nearly 100% opposite to your opinion.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being able
>> to stop, avoid, etc.
>
> That's exactly my point. Snow tires improve performance in ALL of those
> categories in bad conditions.
>
>>> Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive.
>>> All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every
>>> NEEDS it. Same with snow tires.
>
> No, it's not like that at all. The truth is that very few people
> actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive
> benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides.

The truth is, very few people NEED snow tires, they just think they do.
The benefits of AWD exceed the benefits of snow tires as many tests
have shown.


> What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that handles
> well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since the tires are
> at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and they're a
> definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in the case of
> some higher-end AWD systems in cars.

My truck in 4WD handles much better than my FWD cars.


>> Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that
>> since 4WD will take off better in snow, move through snow better with
>> 7 1/2 feet of steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push the weight
>> of that snow ahead of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD must be
>> better in snow. There are downsides to the confidence that falsely
>> creeps into people's minds when there are niche benefits to things.
>
> Absolutely! It's what convinces people to spend thousands of extra
> dollars on vehicles that are no better in the snow - and often worse -
> than a FWD car with a few hundred dollars worth of snow tires on it.
> It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like idiots in
> bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their roofs.

Can you produce a reference to any tests that show that snow tires on a
2WD car increases performance in snow more than AWD on that same car?

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Darby OGill wrote:
>>>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt", that's
>>>>> a pretty ridiculous statement.
>>>> Possibly, but consider how many people who live in the snow belt get
>>>> along just fine without snow tires. I lived over 60 years in snowy
>>>> mid-Michigan and never had a need for snow tires. And when
>>>> front-wheel-drive became common there was even less need for the
>>>> hassle of changing in and out of snow tires.
>>> I too haven't run snows in a while, but be real, all seasons really
>>> aren't good in snow-we've all just like the ease of them.
>>
>> I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very
>> good in snow.
>
> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are
> dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as
> "all season". As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've
> had to use many of them in snow and most of the performance of the tires
> on them have range from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright
> dangerous". NONE of them have been what I would call good performers in
> snow, compared to my winter tires. Keep in mind that all of these cars
> have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in good
> shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite substantial.

I drive a lot of rental cars also (10 a year at least) and find no
problem in snow. I was in Fargo, ND just last week. Not a lot of snow,
but the -34F with -50F wind chill was interesting.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:I5Axj.4517$A93.4348@trndny08...
>
>> You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are dramatic
>> differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as "all season".
>> As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've had to use many of
>> them in snow and most of the performance of the tires on them have range
>> from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright dangerous". NONE of them have
>> been what I would call good performers in snow, compared to my winter
>> tires. Keep in mind that all of these cars have had relatively low mileage
>> on them, so the tires with in good shape. Whether you believe it or not,
>> the difference IS quite substantial.
>
> I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk ASR's out
> there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard to find a nice
> soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other than cruising down dry
> interstates. They hydroplane badly, they corner badly, and they are as
> useless as slicks in the snow. That said - I've had no trouble finding
> perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round.
>

And fleet rental cars don't exactly come with top'o the line tires.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>> No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't
>> need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any
>> detailed figures on USA tire sales by type, but I'll bet my 2% figure
>> isn't far off as the fraction of total tire sales annually that are
>> winter tires.
>
> Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of buying
> trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of people that
> buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one. I could easily
> argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need for an SUV. I
> could also reasonably argue that many - if not most - SUV buyers would
> be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set of snow tires
> instead of an SUV.

Neither is your opinion about snow tires any indicator of need or
efficiency or tread life.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> DonC wrote:
>>> "Matt Whiting" <whiting RemoveThis @epix.net> wrote in message
>>> news:06Kwj.88$555.1273@news1.epix.net...
>>>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> I'm not against snow tires at all, I just don't need them ...
>>>>>>> like 98% of the rest of the folks in the USA. There are 2% who
>>>>>>> need them and they should buy and use them.
>>>>>> Considering how much of the country lies in the "snow belt",
>>>>>> that's a pretty ridiculous statement.
>>>>> Maybe not. Back in the 50's, I remember putting full chains on my
>>>>> father's car for the first couple of days after a snow. Main roads
>>>>> were poorly plowed, side streets were not plowed at all. We lived
>>>>> in Philadelphia and a 6" snow was a lot.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've since moved to Connecticut and 10" to 12" is common. I've
>>>>> never thought about snow tires. Why? They plow frequently, they
>>>>> plow well, they treat the streets. In the worst storms here, if I
>>>>> can get out of my driveway, I can get most anyplace. Like anyplace
>>>>> else, you have to use common sense and slow down in snow. If there
>>>>> is slick ice, no car is going to fare well, no matter what tire is
>>>>> on it.
>>>> Well, studded tires help a lot on ice. Although, I haven't
>>>> felt the need for studs since the 70s.
>>>>
>>>> Matt
>>>
>>> Studded tires have been banned in some states due to the damage they
>>> do to roads. I know Michigan banned them. In any case I never got
>>> them and never really needed them there.
>>
>> All true, but the fact remains that the statement about "no matter
>> what tire is on it" is simply false.
>
> That's true, but it's a case of "the pot calling the kettle black"
> considering some of the blatantly false and/or misleading statements
> you've made in this thread.

I have not made a single false or misleading statement.

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> It's not all about being able to take off. It's also about being able
>> to stop, avoid, etc.
>
> That's exactly my point. Snow tires improve performance in ALL of those
> categories in bad conditions.
>
>>> Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive.
>>> All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every
>>> NEEDS it. Same with snow tires.
>
> No, it's not like that at all. The truth is that very few people
> actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive
> benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides.
>
> What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that handles
> well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since the tires are
> at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and they're a
> definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in the case of
> some higher-end AWD systems in cars.
>
>> Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that
>> since 4WD will take off better in snow, move through snow better with
>> 7 1/2 feet of steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push the weight
>> of that snow ahead of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD must be
>> better in snow. There are downsides to the confidence that falsely
>> creeps into people's minds when there are niche benefits to things.
>
> Absolutely! It's what convinces people to spend thousands of extra
> dollars on vehicles that are no better in the snow - and often worse -
> than a FWD car with a few hundred dollars worth of snow tires on it.
> It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like idiots in
> bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their roofs.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/2005/winter-driv...-405-wi
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>> Darby OGill wrote:
>>>> "> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping
>>>> an extra set
>>>>> of tires just for snow couldn't be justified by most drivers. And
>>>>> accordingly, it's not a very common practice. Maybe in upper
>>>>> Michigan where they get clobbered by lake-effect snow but not the
>>>>> rest of the state.
>>>> I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother
>>>> used to say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank
>>>> full as it does empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel
>>>> wheels, it doesn't cost any more to employ them. Miles put on snows
>>>> are miles not put on regular tires....BTW how many of us use summer
>>>> tires as opposed to all season radials, and is anyone troiubled by
>>>> that performance compromise (wet weather, braking and handling).
>>>> There, I'm done beating the dead horse<grin>.....I guess the group
>>>> does largely agree on one thing- The OP faulting Hyundai is mostly
>>>> without merit.(I think the touchy throttle observation was a good
>>>> one though)
>>>
>>> And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much faster than
>>> an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow tire is more
>>> costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire.
>>
>> That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30
>> years, you have nothing to base that conclusion on.
>
> It simply is true:
>
> http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tires-auto-parts/tires/tire-so...r-winte
>
>
> http://www.consumersearch.com/www/automotive/snow-tires/review.html

Did you even read either of these articles??? Here's the first paragraph
from the second one:

"Even if your car has traction control or an ABS braking system, those
features won't improve traction on snow and ice. Experts at The Tire
Rack say only snow tires will actually improve grip on snow and ice.
Although all-wheel-drive or front-wheel-drive is an advantage, you'll
still improve safety by swapping your summer or all-season tires for
winter ones. This is because snow tires have special tread designs that
help them bite into the snow. Snow tires also use a softer rubber
compound, so they stay flexible at lower temperatures."

That certainly doesn't support your anti-winter tire assertions.

> Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason.

They lack a tread wear rating because they're not designed for
year-round use.

> I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, but I
> do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster than
> all-season tires.

On your truck I can believe it, but on cars it's not true, at least not
in the absolute terms you proclaim. I can give you a perfect example,
the tires on my Elantra. The car is an '04 and I've driven both sets of
tires for four seasons (the winter season isn't over yet, but it's close
enough). My summer tires - the stock Michelins that came on the car -
are completely worn out and must be replaced. Actually, they really
should have been replaced before last season, but they just passed
inspection. In contrast, my winter tires still have 2/3 of their
original depth. They will last at least another season and perhaps two.

> Winter tire design and
>> rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that
>> they use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires", they're
>> quite durable in the colder winter temperatures they're designed for.
>> They're often MORE durable that typical soft summer "performance"
>> compounds. My winter tires last at least as many seasons as my summer
>> tires and they typically cost less. Once you amortize the cost of the
>> extra set of wheels, it's all gravy (I had one set of wheels that I
>> used on four cars between '84 and '04). Unless one drives aggressively
>> year-round when on dry pavement, there is no significant downside to
>> winter tires. There ARE significant safety and performance advantages
>> to them in nasty winter conditions. There isn't any inconvenience,
>> either. As Darby pointed out, instead of rotating your tires twice per
>> year (which we should be doing anyway), you just swap from summers to
>> winters and vice versa - rotating them whenever they're reinstalled,
>> of course. If making the switch forces people to rotate their tires
>> when they might not do it otherwise, their summer tires will last
>> longer and they'll actually see some cost saving from it.
>
> I have no doubt that snow tires will outlast performance summer tires as
> they have VERY soft compounds and absolutely lousy tread life. However,
> they will not outwear a good all-season tire, not even close. Post even
> one credible reference that suggests otherwise.

Obviously, you're wrong, as the results on my car prove. I don't need a
reference, I have the tires to prove it. If it makes you happy, I'll
send you pictures of both. Your argument is simply a fabrication to
support your bias against winter tires.

>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who
>> live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of
>> three things:
>>
>> - I don't want to
>>
>> - I don't care
>>
>> - I'm too cheap
>
> No, they boil down to "I don't need them." It is as simple as that.
>
> A question for you, do you drive only all-wheel drive vehicles?

Don't change the subject. I've already covered that ground in another post.
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods 

Matt Whiting wrote:
> DonC wrote:
>> "Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:p%zxj.3428$my3.1411@trndny06...
>>> Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who
>>> live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of
>>> three things:
>>>
>>> - I don't want to
>>>
>>> - I don't care
>>>
>>> - I'm too cheap
>>
>> Add "I don't need them to drive safely"
>>
>> It doesn't "really boil down to ..." your biases.
>>
>> If I've driven in northern snow for almost 50 years -- many before
>> front-wheel drive or radial tires -- without any significant problem,
>> none of things you boiled this down to do not apply. Maybe "I don't
>> need to" would be a better addition to your list.
>
> Brian,
>
> How does if feel to be right when the rest of the world is wrong? It
> seems like the sentiment is nearly 100% opposite to your opinion.

So is that what you're argument is reduced to now? I'm not a lemming,
therefore I must be wrong?
 >> Stay informed about: Hyundai preformance on icy raods