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External
Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 165
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:55 pm
Post subject: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians
Archived from groups: uk>rec>cars>maintenance, others (more info?)
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My Focus 2.0 TDCi had a problem in last spring where sometimes when you
started the engine, it didn't quite reach idle and didn't respond to
throttle inputs. The main dealer replaced the EGR valve but a month or
so later, it did it again. The dealer said there was no fault codes and
they couldn't reproduce the fault so nothing was done.
The car has been fine throughout the summer but over the past few weeks
the problem has reappeared. Today it took about 8 attempts to get the
engine running properly. I drove to my dealer and booked it in for
investigation next week. As I got into the car at the dealer..... a
lucky break. The engine didn't start correctly. The exhaust was belching
out black smoke and it wouldn't respond to throttle.
I dashed back into the dealer and said, "quick, the fault is present
now... get someone to have a look". The service receptionist said, sorry
our diagnostic technician isn't here at the moment. I pointed to the
other Ford technicians working in the workshop and she said they were
not trained to operate the equipment. I said that it was important that
someone witnessed the fault because I knew that it was unlikely to
reproduce the fault when it is booked in next week.
The receptionist came out and witnessed the defect. I told her
(politely) that I would not accept any "unable to reproduce fault"
excuse when it goes in next week. She said that Ford will not authorise
any part replacement without a fault code present. I tried to keep calm
because the girl was quite young and I don't like to appear to be
threatening but I tried to make it clear that my warranty conditions
overrode Ford's instructions to its dealers.
I left feeling quite shocked that these modern, well paid vehicle
technicians can't do anything without a fault code. I'm an aircraft
engineer working on modern aircraft. As you can imagine, we make high
use of built in test equipment and external diagnostic equipment but if
the equipment fails to show up a fault and the pilot insists that there
is a fault, we don't just give up. We go back to basics, troubleshoot on
paper and start replacing bits.
Sorry, rant over. If Tim or anyone else has any idea what the problem
is, I'm sure my dealer will be very appreciative 
--
Paul Giverin
British Jet Engine Website:- www.britjet.co.uk
My photos:- www.pbase.com/vendee |
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External
Since: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 19
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Sounds about the right response from Ford dealers.
One thing you can be sure about though, they will give it a good long test
drive, trying to remove as much tread as possible from the front tyres
during the process.
They think they are doing you a favour by looking at your car, under
warrantee or not !
I am not impressed either, great cars serviced and repaired by useless
dealers who do not care.
Mike
"Paul Giverin" <paul DeleteThis @giverin.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hkseINDVcPkHFwxO@10.0.0.3...
> My Focus 2.0 TDCi had a problem in last spring where sometimes when you
> started the engine, it didn't quite reach idle and didn't respond to
> throttle inputs. The main dealer replaced the EGR valve but a month or so
> later, it did it again. The dealer said there was no fault codes and they
> couldn't reproduce the fault so nothing was done.
>
> The car has been fine throughout the summer but over the past few weeks
> the problem has reappeared. Today it took about 8 attempts to get the
> engine running properly. I drove to my dealer and booked it in for
> investigation next week. As I got into the car at the dealer..... a lucky
> break. The engine didn't start correctly. The exhaust was belching out
> black smoke and it wouldn't respond to throttle.
>
> I dashed back into the dealer and said, "quick, the fault is present
> now... get someone to have a look". The service receptionist said, sorry
> our diagnostic technician isn't here at the moment. I pointed to the other
> Ford technicians working in the workshop and she said they were not
> trained to operate the equipment. I said that it was important that
> someone witnessed the fault because I knew that it was unlikely to
> reproduce the fault when it is booked in next week.
>
> The receptionist came out and witnessed the defect. I told her (politely)
> that I would not accept any "unable to reproduce fault" excuse when it
> goes in next week. She said that Ford will not authorise any part
> replacement without a fault code present. I tried to keep calm because the
> girl was quite young and I don't like to appear to be threatening but I
> tried to make it clear that my warranty conditions overrode Ford's
> instructions to its dealers.
>
> I left feeling quite shocked that these modern, well paid vehicle
> technicians can't do anything without a fault code. I'm an aircraft
> engineer working on modern aircraft. As you can imagine, we make high use
> of built in test equipment and external diagnostic equipment but if the
> equipment fails to show up a fault and the pilot insists that there is a
> fault, we don't just give up. We go back to basics, troubleshoot on paper
> and start replacing bits.
>
> Sorry, rant over. If Tim or anyone else has any idea what the problem is,
> I'm sure my dealer will be very appreciative
>
>
> --
> Paul Giverin
>
> British Jet Engine Website:- www.britjet.co.uk
>
> My photos:- www.pbase.com/vendee |
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External
Since: Nov 30, 2006
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> I left feeling quite shocked that these modern, well paid vehicle
> technicians can't do anything without a fault code.
errr well paid technician ? I must have missed that part when I picked my
wage packet up today !!!! the garage may get the £50+ an hour us technicians
certainly don't !!! but then we are all not aircraft engineers.
We go back to basics, troubleshoot on
> paper and start replacing bits.
we don't have the luxury of replacing bits willy nilly, any bits we order
nowadays tend to be special order or come in sealed packets, so once opened
they are non returnable & the customer certainly isn't going to pay for
parts they didn't need.
unfortunately I know how frustrating it can be for yourself & us if a code
isn't present or showing a fault at the time of presentation, >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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External
Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 165
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:56 am
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In message <fmrdnv$lil$1@aioe.org>, reg <reg.TakeThisOut@ihatespam.com> writes
>
>> I left feeling quite shocked that these modern, well paid vehicle
>> technicians can't do anything without a fault code.
>
>errr well paid technician ? I must have missed that part when I picked my
>wage packet up today !!!! the garage may get the £50+ an hour us technicians
>certainly don't !!! but then we are all not aircraft engineers.
>
I've seen job adverts for technicians at main dealerships where the
salary has been equal or greater than paid to some aircraft engineers.
I'm not saying that's the case for all vehicle technicians.
>We go back to basics, troubleshoot on
>> paper and start replacing bits.
>
>we don't have the luxury of replacing bits willy nilly, any bits we order
>nowadays tend to be special order or come in sealed packets, so once opened
>they are non returnable & the customer certainly isn't going to pay for
>parts they didn't need.
>
That would obviously be a concern of the customer where the customer was
paying for the work carried out but in this case the car is covered by
warranty and I just want it fixed. The cost is not my concern. I know
that sounds selfish but its the reality of the situation.
>unfortunately I know how frustrating it can be for yourself & us if a code
>isn't present or showing a fault at the time of presentation,
>
>
Absolutely, but the dealership has witnessed the car demonstrating the
fault. There is no doubt that it has a fault and I won't accept any
excuses about a lack of fault code. The fault exists and I want it
fixed.
--
Paul Giverin
British Jet Engine Website:- www.britjet.co.uk
My photos:- www.pbase.com/vendee >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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External
Since: Sep 10, 2007
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hia Paul,
While unrelated, I am a TV engineer (qualified to degree level) but
intermittent faults are the same, especally with regard to electronics, but
the maths and science are the same in electrical and mechanical systems at
that level of engineering. An intermittent fault is very frustrating, and
will often will not show up on diagnostics, only while the problem is
present. I know nothing about cars suffice what I have said, but the
problems are the same. I think that it is very shortcoming of the company
that they only have one person trained to use diagnostics. I my job, we all
do the same training courses. It's the're problem, not yours.
It seems to me, that they are incompedent. PS I work with an EX RAF
technician!
Regards
Rodders
"Paul Giverin" <paul.TakeThisOut@giverin.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hkseINDVcPkHFwxO@10.0.0.3...
> My Focus 2.0 TDCi had a problem in last spring where sometimes when you
> started the engine, it didn't quite reach idle and didn't respond to
> throttle inputs. The main dealer replaced the EGR valve but a month or so
> later, it did it again. The dealer said there was no fault codes and they
> couldn't reproduce the fault so nothing was done.
>
> The car has been fine throughout the summer but over the past few weeks
> the problem has reappeared. Today it took about 8 attempts to get the
> engine running properly. I drove to my dealer and booked it in for
> investigation next week. As I got into the car at the dealer..... a lucky
> break. The engine didn't start correctly. The exhaust was belching out
> black smoke and it wouldn't respond to throttle.
>
> I dashed back into the dealer and said, "quick, the fault is present
> now... get someone to have a look". The service receptionist said, sorry
> our diagnostic technician isn't here at the moment. I pointed to the other
> Ford technicians working in the workshop and she said they were not
> trained to operate the equipment. I said that it was important that
> someone witnessed the fault because I knew that it was unlikely to
> reproduce the fault when it is booked in next week.
>
> The receptionist came out and witnessed the defect. I told her (politely)
> that I would not accept any "unable to reproduce fault" excuse when it
> goes in next week. She said that Ford will not authorise any part
> replacement without a fault code present. I tried to keep calm because the
> girl was quite young and I don't like to appear to be threatening but I
> tried to make it clear that my warranty conditions overrode Ford's
> instructions to its dealers.
>
> I left feeling quite shocked that these modern, well paid vehicle
> technicians can't do anything without a fault code. I'm an aircraft
> engineer working on modern aircraft. As you can imagine, we make high use
> of built in test equipment and external diagnostic equipment but if the
> equipment fails to show up a fault and the pilot insists that there is a
> fault, we don't just give up. We go back to basics, troubleshoot on paper
> and start replacing bits.
>
> Sorry, rant over. If Tim or anyone else has any idea what the problem is,
> I'm sure my dealer will be very appreciative
>
>
> --
> Paul Giverin
>
> British Jet Engine Website:- www.britjet.co.uk
>
> My photos:- www.pbase.com/vendee >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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External
Since: Jul 04, 2006
Posts: 109
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Paul Giverin" <paul RemoveThis @giverin.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hkseINDVcPkHFwxO@10.0.0.3...
> My Focus 2.0 TDCi had a problem in last spring where sometimes when you
> started the engine, it didn't quite reach idle and didn't respond to
> throttle inputs. The main dealer replaced the EGR valve but a month or so
> later, it did it again. The dealer said there was no fault codes and they
> couldn't reproduce the fault so nothing was done.
>
> The car has been fine throughout the summer but over the past few weeks
> the problem has reappeared. Today it took about 8 attempts to get the
> engine running properly. I drove to my dealer and booked it in for
> investigation next week. As I got into the car at the dealer..... a lucky
> break. The engine didn't start correctly. The exhaust was belching out
> black smoke and it wouldn't respond to throttle.
>
> I dashed back into the dealer and said, "quick, the fault is present
> now... get someone to have a look". The service receptionist said, sorry
> our diagnostic technician isn't here at the moment. I pointed to the other
> Ford technicians working in the workshop and she said they were not
> trained to operate the equipment. I said that it was important that
> someone witnessed the fault because I knew that it was unlikely to
> reproduce the fault when it is booked in next week.
>
> The receptionist came out and witnessed the defect. I told her (politely)
> that I would not accept any "unable to reproduce fault" excuse when it
> goes in next week. She said that Ford will not authorise any part
> replacement without a fault code present. I tried to keep calm because the
> girl was quite young and I don't like to appear to be threatening but I
> tried to make it clear that my warranty conditions overrode Ford's
> instructions to its dealers.
>
> I left feeling quite shocked that these modern, well paid vehicle
> technicians can't do anything without a fault code. I'm an aircraft
> engineer working on modern aircraft. As you can imagine, we make high use
> of built in test equipment and external diagnostic equipment but if the
> equipment fails to show up a fault and the pilot insists that there is a
> fault, we don't just give up. We go back to basics, troubleshoot on paper
> and start replacing bits.
>
> Sorry, rant over. If Tim or anyone else has any idea what the problem is,
> I'm sure my dealer will be very appreciative
As others have suggested and as a good dealership should do, updating the
ECU software ought to be done anyway when the car is in the dealer for any
work, diagnostics or not.
On a similar note, part of the issue is the dealer. A good dealer can
really help the customer when a car isn't quite right, but stubbornly
refuses to demonstrate the fault when you take it to the dealer.
When Kermy's TMAP sensor died, I had a pretty good idea what the problem was
(mostly because the ECU reported that the TMAP had died, I'd followed
through various flow charts to check other issues such as vacuum leaks,
which can cause the same error).
The lad was close to undriveable so driving the 100 miles to my preferred
Ford dealership wasn't an option. The closest Ford dealer in York were
moderately useful but refused to accept that the customer could possibly
have read the fault code, so wanted the diagnostic charge to tell me what
I'd already told them.
Instead, I took the Ka to a slightly further dealer, where they had a much
more pragmatic approach to diagnostics. Shoot, even the Honda dealer in
York will rebate the diagnostic fee if you have the work done there.
The long and the short of the above... change the dealer?
--
The DervMan
www.dervman.com >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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External
Since: Jul 17, 2005
Posts: 103
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Paul Giverin" <paul RemoveThis @giverin.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hkseINDVcPkHFwxO@10.0.0.3...
> My Focus 2.0 TDCi had a problem in last spring where sometimes when you
> started the engine, it didn't quite reach idle and didn't respond to
> throttle inputs. The main dealer replaced the EGR valve but a month or so
> later, it did it again. The dealer said there was no fault codes and they
> couldn't reproduce the fault so nothing was done.
>
> The car has been fine throughout the summer but over the past few weeks
> the problem has reappeared. Today it took about 8 attempts to get the
> engine running properly. I drove to my dealer and booked it in for
> investigation next week. As I got into the car at the dealer..... a lucky
> break. The engine didn't start correctly. The exhaust was belching out
> black smoke and it wouldn't respond to throttle.
>
> I dashed back into the dealer and said, "quick, the fault is present
> now... get someone to have a look". The service receptionist said, sorry
> our diagnostic technician isn't here at the moment. I pointed to the other
> Ford technicians working in the workshop and she said they were not
> trained to operate the equipment. I said that it was important that
> someone witnessed the fault because I knew that it was unlikely to
> reproduce the fault when it is booked in next week.
>
> The receptionist came out and witnessed the defect. I told her (politely)
> that I would not accept any "unable to reproduce fault" excuse when it
> goes in next week. She said that Ford will not authorise any part
> replacement without a fault code present. I tried to keep calm because the
> girl was quite young and I don't like to appear to be threatening but I
> tried to make it clear that my warranty conditions overrode Ford's
> instructions to its dealers.
>
> I left feeling quite shocked that these modern, well paid vehicle
> technicians can't do anything without a fault code. I'm an aircraft
> engineer working on modern aircraft. As you can imagine, we make high use
> of built in test equipment and external diagnostic equipment but if the
> equipment fails to show up a fault and the pilot insists that there is a
> fault, we don't just give up. We go back to basics, troubleshoot on paper
> and start replacing bits.
>
> Sorry, rant over. If Tim or anyone else has any idea what the problem is,
> I'm sure my dealer will be very appreciative
Hmmm. Tricky one. As Moray has said, first check for any software updates or
TSB's that are available and address idling issues. Also have them check the
wiring to the PPS, or do it yourself.
The black smoke sounds a different issue, perhaps an EGR one, but without
seeing the car it's difficult to say without seeing the symptoms it is
producing.
Normally the ECU is programmed such that if base idle rpms arent reached
within so many crank rotations of start up, a cut out is effected- the
engine cuts out just as it does if you pull rpms down by loading it, but it
will restart fine and run ok as long as rpm reaches the target.
Tim.. >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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External
Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 165
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:55 am
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In message <kKOdndkiCOM2egzaRVnyvwA.DeleteThis@bt.com>, Tim..
<the.farm.no.DeleteThis@spam.btinternet.com> writes
>
>Hmmm. Tricky one. As Moray has said, first check for any software updates or
>TSB's that are available and address idling issues. Also have them check the
>wiring to the PPS, or do it yourself.
>
>The black smoke sounds a different issue, perhaps an EGR one, but without
>seeing the car it's difficult to say without seeing the symptoms it is
>producing.
>
The black smoke is only there when it doesn't start properly. When the
engine has started properly, its faultless in every other respect. I'm
quite impressed by its power delivery.
>Normally the ECU is programmed such that if base idle rpms arent reached
>within so many crank rotations of start up, a cut out is effected- the
>engine cuts out just as it does if you pull rpms down by loading it, but it
>will restart fine and run ok as long as rpm reaches the target.
>
I do feel that its not getting enough of a crank from the starter.
However it never does it from cold. It always does it when the engine
has been running and has been switched off for 5-10 minutes. When the
fault does occur, I have to turn the engine off again. It will often
repeat the fault for the next 6-8 start attempts but I've now found that
if I give it about half a boot of throttle when turning it over, it will
fire up to 1500 rpm before settling down to normal idle speed.
--
Paul Giverin
British Jet Engine Website:- www.britjet.co.uk
My photos:- www.pbase.com/vendee >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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External
Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 165
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In message <hkseINDVcPkHFwxO.TakeThisOut@10.0.0.3>, Paul Giverin
<paul.TakeThisOut@giverin.co.uk> writes
>My Focus 2.0 TDCi had a problem in last spring where sometimes when you
>started the engine, it didn't quite reach idle and didn't respond to
>throttle inputs. The main dealer replaced the EGR valve but a month or
>so later, it did it again. The dealer said there was no fault codes and
>they couldn't reproduce the fault so nothing was done.
>
>The car has been fine throughout the summer but over the past few weeks
>the problem has reappeared. Today it took about 8 attempts to get the
>engine running properly. I drove to my dealer and booked it in for
>investigation next week. As I got into the car at the dealer..... a
>lucky break. The engine didn't start correctly. The exhaust was
>belching out black smoke and it wouldn't respond to throttle.
>
Just as a follow up:- the car went in to the dealer today. As
expected... no fault codes present. Technician phoned Ford who said that
the problem is known to them. They have provided an updated PCM which
they say will make the problem "less likely" but they say that the real
problem is owners not keeping the starter motor engaged long enough.
Utter bollox in my case but we will see if the PCM update makes any
difference.
--
Paul Giverin
British Jet Engine Website:- www.britjet.co.uk
My photos:- www.pbase.com/vendee >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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External
Since: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Paul Giverin" <paul.DeleteThis@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
> but they say that the real problem is owners not keeping
> the starter motor engaged long enough.
Won't over-engaging the starter cause problems with the teeth
on the starter gear. I'm thinking of continuing to crank the
engine after it has "caught."
--
Don >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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External
Since: Oct 17, 2006
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:55 am
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 00:11:46 -0000, Don McC <DonMcC.RemoveThis@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> "Paul Giverin" <paul.RemoveThis@giverin.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> but they say that the real problem is owners not keeping
>> the starter motor engaged long enough.
>
> Won't over-engaging the starter cause problems with the teeth
> on the starter gear. I'm thinking of continuing to crank the
> engine after it has "caught."
>
> --
> Don
>
>
Not unless you really overdo it. >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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External
Since: Jul 01, 2003
Posts: 165
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In message <jbDu3KBk$gnHFw7l@10.0.0.3>, Paul Giverin
<paul DeleteThis @giverin.co.uk> writes
>>My Focus 2.0 TDCi had a problem in last spring where sometimes when
>>you started the engine, it didn't quite reach idle and didn't respond
>>throttle inputs.
>>
>>The car has been fine throughout the summer but over the past few
>>weeks the problem has reappeared. Today it took about 8 attempts to
>>get the engine running properly. I drove to my dealer and booked it in
>>for investigation next week. As I got into the car at the dealer.....
>>a lucky break. The engine didn't start correctly. The exhaust was
>>belching out black smoke and it wouldn't respond to throttle.
>>
>Just as a follow up:- the car went in to the dealer today. As
>expected... no fault codes present. Technician phoned Ford who said
>that the problem is known to them. They have provided an updated PCM
>which they say will make the problem "less likely" but they say that
>the real problem is owners not keeping the starter motor engaged long
>enough. Utter bollox in my case but we will see if the PCM update makes
>any difference.
>
Well the PCM update didn't work and the problem was getting worse. The
master technician at the Ford dealership finally got the full story from
Ford technical. Apparently the problem lies with the fuel injectors. The
PCM update was designed to mask the problem or make it less severe.
As a new set of injectors cost circa £1000, Ford are keen to try any
workaround rather than fix the root cause. My engine was put through a
comprehensive set of tests including cylinder compression, fuel pump
pressure check and injector back leakage checks. Despite all these
checks passing with flying colours, Ford have authorised a new set of
injectors to be fitted. I should get the car back on Monday so fingers
crossed.
--
Paul Giverin
British Jet Engine Website:- www.britjet.co.uk
My photos:- www.pbase.com/vendee >> Stay informed about: Focus 2.0 TDCi / Ford service technicians |
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