Ethanol

Ray O wrote:

> It would seem so, but air quality has improved somewhat so the ethanol must
> be helping at least a little.

No evidence of that at all. Air quality has improved because of improved
emissions control equipment.

The reason for ethanol is that ADM contributes a lot of money to
politicians.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On Nov 26, 1:36 am, Sarah Houston <SHo... RemoveThis @pndfnospam.com> wrote:
> You know, someone here mentioned that they took a hit in MPG from
> ethanol, and I was wondering what happened to the car this fall. I was
> averaging about 26.5 MPG in my work, which is mostly city driving, and
> then all of a sudden I started getting about 23.5. In fact I even took
> it in about 10 days ago for them to check the timing, thinking something
> might be wrong.
>
> Ethanol.
>
> If it does that, but is supposed to help clean up the air, then isn't
> that the opposite of the results intended? By mandating it every fall,
> isn't the government ensuring more air pollution that way?
>
> “I've used the Civil Rights Act as an example of the way a well-
> intentioned government program grows and causes far more problems than
> it solves. But it is just one example.
> All government programs expand to encompass the political demands of
> people who want to take advantage of its benefits. And almost all
> government programs eventually do the opposite of what their original
> backers had asked for.
> Whatever social reform you may envision, the version the government
> implements will be something completely different. However lofty your
> purpose, it will be debased by compromises in the legislature, in the
> administration of the program by thousands of government employees, and
> in the settling of the inevitable disputes.
> Not only that, the program is likely to grow far bigger and more
> complicated than what you wanted. And someday it will evolve into a
> force opposite to your intentions.
> You aren't a dictator. You can't control the actions of politicians,
> bureaucrats, and judges.
> Please remember that the next time you think some law will solve some
> great social problem.” – Harry Browne

I dont remember when pure gas was sold here in the midwest, maybe 20+
years ago? All gas here has had 10% alcohol for years. E85, thats 85%
Alcohol? your car wont run on it. In Sept winter blends are out that
reduce milage a bit. Timing is just one thing that reduces milage,
cars dont tell you when components go bad that affect milage, get a
good local mechanic to go over things and put it on a scope. When my
old camry would drop 3 mpg I would go over everything since any small
issue affects milage in a big way. In winter your milage will drop, a
bad thermostat will make it worse, sticking brakes, bad O2 sensor, air
filter, plugs-wires- rotor-timing, even old oil in motor. has the
differential ever been even checked, no, nobody does it, unless you
demand it and watch them, has it been changed. Did it do this last
fall when temps dropped.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

"Sarah Houston" <SHoust.RemoveThis@pndfnospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9B626236C7D0SntzldfrdSntzldfrdco@216.196.97.142...
> You know, someone here mentioned that they took a hit in MPG from
> ethanol, and I was wondering what happened to the car this fall. I
> was
> averaging about 26.5 MPG in my work, which is mostly city driving,
> and
> then all of a sudden I started getting about 23.5. In fact I even
> took
> it in about 10 days ago for them to check the timing, thinking
> something
> might be wrong.

If your car is running properly, you shouldn't see that sort of fuel
economy decline when using gasoline with ethanol. The highest
concentration that they can sell as gasoline is e10, that's 10%
ethanol. Ethanol has roughly 85% as much energy as gasoline, so e10
has about 98.5% as much energy as straight regular gasoline. At the
most your mileage should suffer a 3% decline - if you were getting
26.5 mpg on straight gasoline, you should be getting no worse than
25.7 mpg on e10, assuming all things are equal.

I buy a lot of gas at Costco. A few months back, they slapped on
stickers indicating that the gasoline could contain up to 10% ethanol.
I have always kept a gas log for all of my vehicles. For my Fusion, I
think I can see a very slight decrease, but nothing as drastic as you
are claiming (and I am not sure there is really a decline, just the
hint of one). For my Frontier, I've seen no change at all. For some
vehicles, the change in mileage with e10 is negligible because the e10
has a little higher octane (in some cases) and the vehicle's PCM can
adjust the parameters to take advantage of the change.

Do you keep a gas log? If you don't, I'd suggest doing so. I don't
think you can reasonably blame an eleven percent decline in fuel
economy on the switch to e10 gasoline (at least for a modern fuel
injected engine). Something else must be going on - either a real
problem with the engine, a change in driving style, or incomplete
record keeping. For sure you need to calculate your fuel economy
average over multiple tanks of fuel. It is very easy to get large
variations in fuel economy when doing single tank averages.

Ed
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

"C. E. White" <cewhite3.TakeThisOut@removemindspring.com> wrote :

>
> "Sarah Houston" <SHoust.TakeThisOut@pndfnospam.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9B626236C7D0SntzldfrdSntzldfrdco@216.196.97.142...
>> You know, someone here mentioned that they took a hit in MPG from
>> ethanol, and I was wondering what happened to the car this fall. I
>> was
>> averaging about 26.5 MPG in my work, which is mostly city driving,
>> and
>> then all of a sudden I started getting about 23.5. In fact I even
>> took
>> it in about 10 days ago for them to check the timing, thinking
>> something
>> might be wrong.
>
> If your car is running properly, you shouldn't see that sort of fuel
> economy decline when using gasoline with ethanol. The highest
> concentration that they can sell as gasoline is e10, that's 10%
> ethanol. Ethanol has roughly 85% as much energy as gasoline, so e10
> has about 98.5% as much energy as straight regular gasoline. At the
> most your mileage should suffer a 3% decline - if you were getting
> 26.5 mpg on straight gasoline, you should be getting no worse than
> 25.7 mpg on e10, assuming all things are equal.
>
> I buy a lot of gas at Costco. A few months back, they slapped on
> stickers indicating that the gasoline could contain up to 10% ethanol.
> I have always kept a gas log for all of my vehicles. For my Fusion, I
> think I can see a very slight decrease, but nothing as drastic as you
> are claiming (and I am not sure there is really a decline, just the
> hint of one). For my Frontier, I've seen no change at all. For some
> vehicles, the change in mileage with e10 is negligible because the e10
> has a little higher octane (in some cases) and the vehicle's PCM can
> adjust the parameters to take advantage of the change.
>
> Do you keep a gas log? If you don't, I'd suggest doing so. I don't
> think you can reasonably blame an eleven percent decline in fuel
> economy on the switch to e10 gasoline (at least for a modern fuel
> injected engine). Something else must be going on - either a real
> problem with the engine, a change in driving style, or incomplete
> record keeping. For sure you need to calculate your fuel economy
> average over multiple tanks of fuel. It is very easy to get large
> variations in fuel economy when doing single tank averages.

Hmm, ok, thanks.

The engine seems to be running fine. Not sure why then.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

ransley <Mark_Ransley RemoveThis @Yahoo.com> wrote :

> I dont remember when pure gas was sold here in the midwest, maybe 20+
> years ago? All gas here has had 10% alcohol for years. E85, thats 85%
> Alcohol? your car wont run on it. In Sept winter blends are out that
> reduce milage a bit. Timing is just one thing that reduces milage,
> cars dont tell you when components go bad that affect milage, get a
> good local mechanic to go over things and put it on a scope. When my
> old camry would drop 3 mpg I would go over everything since any small
> issue affects milage in a big way. In winter your milage will drop, a
> bad thermostat will make it worse, sticking brakes, bad O2 sensor,
> air filter, plugs-wires- rotor-timing, even old oil in motor. has the
> differential ever been even checked, no, nobody does it, unless you
> demand it and watch them, has it been changed.

Differentials can make a difference in MPG???

> Did it do this last
> fall when temps dropped.
>

Don't recall, like you say, I need to keep a running tab.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

Sarah Houston wrote:
> ransley <Mark_Ransley.TakeThisOut@Yahoo.com> wrote :
>
> > I dont remember when pure gas was sold here in the midwest, maybe 20+
> > years ago? All gas here has had 10% alcohol for years. E85, thats 85%
> > Alcohol? your car wont run on it. In Sept winter blends are out that
> > reduce milage a bit. Timing is just one thing that reduces milage,
> > cars dont tell you when components go bad that affect milage, get a
> > good local mechanic to go over things and put it on a scope. When my
> > old camry would drop 3 mpg I would go over everything since any small
> > issue affects milage in a big way. In winter your milage will drop, a
> > bad thermostat will make it worse, sticking brakes, bad O2 sensor,
> > air filter, plugs-wires- rotor-timing, even old oil in motor. has the
> > differential ever been even checked, no, nobody does it, unless you
> > demand it and watch them, has it been changed.
>
> Differentials can make a difference in MPG???
>
> > Did it do this last
> > fall when temps dropped.
> >
>
> Don't recall, like you say, I need to keep a running tab.

At the bar? That could be your problem.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On Nov 26, 8:02 am, "C. E. White" <cewhi... RemoveThis @removemindspring.com>
wrote:
> "Sarah Houston" <SHo... RemoveThis @pndfnospam.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9B626236C7D0SntzldfrdSntzldfrdco@216.196.97.142...
>
> > You know, someone here mentioned that they took a hit in MPG from
> > ethanol, and I was wondering what happened to the car this fall. I
> > was
> > averaging about 26.5 MPG in my work, which is mostly city driving,
> > and
> > then all of a sudden I started getting about 23.5. In fact I even
> > took
> > it in about 10 days ago for them to check the timing, thinking
> > something
> > might be wrong.
>
> If your car is running properly, you shouldn't see that sort of fuel
> economy decline when using gasoline with ethanol. The highest
> concentration that they can sell as gasoline is e10, that's 10%
> ethanol. Ethanol has roughly 85% as much energy as gasoline, so e10
> has about 98.5% as much energy as straight regular gasoline.

Actually, ethanol has about 70% of the energy of gasoline, so E10
should lower gas mileage by about 3% or, in your case, about 0.7 mpg.

> At the
> most your mileage should suffer a 3% decline - if you were getting
> 26.5 mpg on straight gasoline, you should be getting no worse than
> 25.7 mpg on e10, assuming all things are equal.
>
> I buy a lot of gas at Costco. A few months back, they slapped on
> stickers indicating that the gasoline could contain up to 10% ethanol.
> I have always kept a gas log for all of my vehicles. For my Fusion, I
> think I can see a very slight decrease, but nothing as drastic as you
> are claiming (and I am not sure there is really a decline, just the
> hint of one). For my Frontier, I've seen no change at all. For some
> vehicles, the change in mileage with e10 is negligible because the e10
> has a little higher octane (in some cases) and the vehicle's PCM can
> adjust the parameters to take advantage of the change.
>
> Do you keep a gas log? If you don't, I'd suggest doing so. I don't
> think you can reasonably blame an eleven percent decline in fuel
> economy on the switch to e10 gasoline (at least for a modern fuel
> injected engine). Something else must be going on - either a real
> problem with the engine, a change in driving style, or incomplete
> record keeping. For sure you need to calculate your fuel economy
> average over multiple tanks of fuel. It is very easy to get large
> variations in fuel economy when doing single tank averages.
>
> Ed

There are other differences in winter gasoline vs. summer gasoline.
The gasoline contains oxygenates (ethanol is one; MTBE was another -
but MTBE is no longer used) which help the gasoline burn completely,
so that there is less pollution. The oxygenates reduce gasoline
mileage as well. Other differences to make the winter blend may do so
as well.

In addition, in the winter, when the engine starts off colder, the
engine takes longer to run at full efficiency. This may be part of the
problem. Also, you need to check your tire pressure frequently,
because temperature changes result in tire pressure changes as well.
And, as Obama said, we can save plenty of gasoline by keeping our
tires properly inflated.

jeff
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On Nov 26, 8:45 am, SMS <scharf.ste....TakeThisOut@geemail.com> wrote:
> Ray O wrote:
> > It would seem so, but air quality has improved somewhat so the ethanol must
> > be helping at least a little.
>
> No evidence of that at all. Air quality has improved because of improved
> emissions control equipment.

Ethanol is an oxygenate that helps gasoline burn completely in the
winter. It does improve winter air quality. An alternative is MTBE, or
at least it was an alternative. However, MTBE was banned because it
causes cancer.

> The reason for ethanol is that ADM contributes a lot of money to
> politicians.

The reason why we use so much ethanol is ADM contributes so much
money.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On Dec 1, 1:28 pm, Conscience <nob....RemoveThis@gov.com> wrote:
> On 2008-12-01 10:10:34 -0800, "C. E. White"
> <cewhi....RemoveThis@removemindspring.com> said:
>
> > Don't get me wrong, maintaining the correct tire pressure (as specified
> > by the vehicle manufacturer) is very important, I just don't think it
> > is the reason for the sudden change in fuel economy.
>
> I remember when the media fawned over Obama's tire inflation
> revelation.  Yet another episode of his changing water to wine.
>
> However they did ignore experts discounting the significance of his
> metaphorical vino.  No sense in paying attention to anything that might
> contradict their messiah.

It is a reason for sudden change in fuel economy, depending on the
problem of the car. If you have been constantly driving around with a
27 psi tire and inflate it to 35 psi, there will be a sudden change in
ride, handling and fuel economy.

A classic example of how politics can make things worse, If I had a
penny for every time I heard in this newsgroup that proper tire
inflation is one of the basic things we can do make our fuel economy
better. Its common knowledge, I've been pumping my tire with pressure
more than recommended since I was riding bicycles. Its basic and it
seems a lot of people dont do them, that's its been said in this
newsgroup, the news, and paper. And now Obama mention tire inflation
and suddenly its not?
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

"Jeff" <jeff.utz.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c5d8877d-f17b-4683-a5e2-12318204091f@v13g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

> In addition, in the winter, when the engine starts off colder, the
> engine takes longer to run at full efficiency. This may be part of
> the
> problem.

I am in NC, so we don't have really cold weather, so for others the
results may be different, but after looking over my gas mielage
records, I cannot find any meaningful differences in summer / winter
fuel economy.

> Also, you need to check your tire pressure frequently,
> because temperature changes result in tire pressure changes as well.
> And, as Obama said, we can save plenty of gasoline by keeping our
> tires properly inflated.

While Obama may be a great President, I am not going to trust his car
advise. Keeping your tire "properly inflated" is only going to have a
minimal impact on fuel economy. Modern radial tires have only a
moderate change in rolling resistance over reasonable inflation
pressures (i.e., if you are with in 25%). You might be able to pick up
a 2% or 3% if your tires are grossly under inflated, but there is no
way it is going to make the large differences most people claim if you
are even close to the proper inflation pressure. GM actually
facilitated an experiment along these lines for me. My Saturn Vue
originally came with a recommended tire pressure of 30 psi, which I
religiously maintained. After they had problems with rear tires
rolling off the bead during a high speed J maneuver test, they upped
the recommended pressure to 35 psi, so I complied. I keep a fuel log
book on all my vehicles, and checked to see how much the fuel economy
increased. The change was below the noise level. I think there was an
increase, but I doubt if it was statistically significant. Certainly
less than 3%. A 3% would mean an increase from 21.6 mpg to 22.2 mpg. I
got nothing that dramatic. Just last week, the "low tire inflation
pressure warning light" came illuminated on my Frontier. I knew this
was because the weather had turned really cold since my last trip in
the truck, so I was unworried. I was in a hurry, so I did my usual 300
mile trip for the day with the light on and only filled the tires up
after the trip was completed (all four were low by around 25%). The
fuel economy was actually better with the tires under-inflated by 25%
than it was on the next trip when they were properly inflated. Of
course, I know single trip averages are meaningless, so I don't claim
this means anything, except, you would have thought if inflation
pressure was so important, tires under-inflated by 25% should have
made a noticeable decrease in fuel economy. In fact, it didn't. The
trip with the tires under inflated fell well within the normal range
for this trip ( I make the same 300 mile round trip at least once a
week).

Don't get me wrong, maintaining the correct tire pressure (as
specified by the vehicle manufacturer) is very important, I just don't
think it is the reason for the sudden change in fuel economy.

Ed
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

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 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

Sarah Houston wrote:

> ransley <Mark_Ransley RemoveThis @Yahoo.com> wrote :
>
> > In winter your milage will drop, a
> > bad thermostat will make it worse, sticking brakes, bad O2 sensor,
> > air filter, plugs-wires- rotor-timing, even old oil in motor. has the
> > differential ever been even checked, no, nobody does it, unless you
> > demand it and watch them, has it been changed.
>
> Differentials can make a difference in MPG???

Back in the 1970s or 1980s, one of the American auto makers switched
to thinner differential oil in at least some of its RWD cars to eek
out a bit more fuel economy.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

Conscience <nobama.TakeThisOut@gov.com> wrote :

> On 2008-12-01 10:10:34 -0800, "C. E. White"
><cewhite3.TakeThisOut@removemindspring.com> said:
>
>> Don't get me wrong, maintaining the correct tire pressure (as
>> specified by the vehicle manufacturer) is very important, I just
>> don't think it is the reason for the sudden change in fuel economy.
>
> I remember when the media fawned over Obama's tire inflation
> revelation. Yet another episode of his changing water to wine.
>
> However they did ignore experts discounting the significance of his
> metaphorical vino. No sense in paying attention to anything that
> might contradict their messiah.
>
>

Yeah, I call him the "Messiah of Marxism".
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol