Ethanol

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 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On May 22, 5:46 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:
>
> I just wish you didn't expect the rest of the country (and the world)
> to pay for your "elixir" in higher food prices.
>

The cost of food world-wide has risen mainly because of the cost of
energy, mainly gasoline and diesel. These fuels have doubled in price
in only a few years.

The US Dept. of Agriculture estimates that diversion of corn to
ethanol production is at most responsible for a 5% rise in the cost of
food.

Clare, look further ahead! The price of oil is not going to go back
to where it was. The world is running out of cheap oil. We need
alternative liquid fuels in order to mitigate the disaster that is
approaching as production from the world's oil wells slow down. It
may already be happening. What will happen to world food prices when
gasoline is $15 per gallon?

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On Thu, 22 May 2008 13:53:34 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben RemoveThis @greenba.com>
wrote:

>On May 22, 3:56 pm, "Aage M Hollander" <h... RemoveThis @localnet.com> wrote:
>> My 1999 Sub legacy St.Wgn(4 cyl,Not an Outback),allows use of 10% Ethanol by
>> the book.Allstations here have 15% ethanol,could I use this ??
>
>I don't know why the car manuals say that. Brazilian cars all use
>ethanol up to 24% without a problem.
>
>My manual (1999 OBW) says the same thing, but I'm running E60 (60%
>eth) after an after-market conversion and plan to go to E85. I think
>the lawyers make them say that.
>
>Try it and watch your check-engine light. If it doesn't go on after
>100 miles, forget about it and enjoy the improved acceleration. You
>will probably get fewer mpg but more mpd (miles per dollar).
>
>Ben
And without conversion most cars will NOT see any better
accelleration. ANd with E15 being the only game in town, it will sell
for the same price as any other gasoline-type fuel, so no improvement
in miles per dollar.

Here in Ontario E10 or E15 or E0 all sells for the same price, and in
many cases you have no way (short of the phase separation test) to
know WHAT you are buying.


If burning Ethanol makes you feel good, fine - but in MOST cases in
Canada and most of the states, expecting any fuel savings or improved
performance is a pipe dream.

I just wish you didn't expect the rest of the country (and the world)
to pay for your "elixir" in higher food prices.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

Clare, I see by another of your posts that you are not opposed to
ethanol as long as it is not derived from food sources.

We can agree on that. Cellulosic ethanol is hard to make cheaply, but
maybe that will change. On the other hand, methanol is not hard to
make cheaply from sawdust, old newspapers, and the like. I hope FFV's
can run on methanol as well.

May it come along soon!

Cheers,
Ben
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On May 22, 10:35 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

...
> Also, methanol fire is invisible. EXTREMEly dangerous.

Can be fixed with an additive.
>
> This also means cold staring on neet methanol is extremely dicey.
> Ether starting is almost the standard for methanol engines (even for a
> hot restart in many cases)

The first alcohol-based FFVs used methanol.
The Indy cars run on methanol.
This problem also may be fixable. Maybe by another additive.

> The beauty of Methanol is it can be produced from CO2 and Hydrogen.
> Just think - combining hydrogen economy with greenhouse gas reduction
> (although burning Methanol produces CO2.)

At least it recycles the CO2 instead of increasing it in the
atmosphere.
...
> It mixes freely with water in any ratio, which can be good or bad.

Think of it as Dry Gas. The water goes out the exhaust. Better than
gasoline.

Thanks for the helpful post!

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On Thu, 22 May 2008 20:34:32 -0400, "Valued Corporate #120,345
Employee (B A R R Y)" <DwightSchrute.RemoveThis@DunderMifflin.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:46:22 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot
>canada wrote:
>>And without conversion most cars will NOT see any better
>>accelleration. ANd with E15 being the only game in town, it will sell
>>for the same price as any other gasoline-type fuel, so no improvement
>>in miles per dollar.
>
>Great point.
>
>"Miles per Dollar" is something that should be promoted more. In my
>eyes it's _the_ way for the driver to look at fuel economy. It's very
>common to look at aircraft efficiency via MPD, because pilots can
>choose between max power, max range, or something in-between throttle
>settings.
>
>I have a Toyota pickup that gets better "MPD" on 92+ octane premium
>(based on actual 10 tank tests), and I'm tired of explaining it to
>people. The year my truck was built, Toyota "recommended" premium
>fuel, but didn't require it. So I did some 10 consecutive tanks
>tests and did the math, and by golly, premium is cheaper to run.
>
>Many vehicles get awful mileage on E85. Some hybrids carry a hefty
>purchase premium. Sometimes the math works, sometimes it doesn't, but
>many don't bother to do the math.
>
>The important thing is to do the math and skip the style... <G>


Yes, MANY vehicles will get better fuel economy on premium, and back
when the difference was 5 or 10 cents a gallon it was OFTEN cheaper to
run these vehicles on premium fuel. With the price difference here in
ontario at 5% from 87 to 89, and another 5% more or less from 89 to
91, you need to get at least a 10% improvement in fuel economy for the
price to work out to a savings. I've almost never seen a 10%
improvement in fuel economy on an unmodified OBD2 equipped vehicle, or
even on an ALDL or OBD1 system. If you can buy premium for a 6% price
penalty, you win ( or, as in the case with Shell in Ontario, where
their Premium (Gold) gas has NO ethanol, and their regular is E10,
+/-, the 5% loss in fuel economy from using ethanol 87 R+M/2 means you
only need 5% improvement from the 4 points of octane to make it make
sense.

On my 3.8 Pontiac (1994, so pre OBD2, but still a rather sophisticated
SEFI system) premium reduces my knock count significantly, but since
even on 87 I'm not seeing any spark retard from the knock count
premium isn't likely to make a noticeable difference. I've got a tank
of 91 in right now trying to diagnose a light throttle surge at about
90kph (1600 rpm in 4th gear) and that's how I've gotten the knock
count info. Still surging on premium, no anomolies on the scanner
(data-streaming)but the surge SEAMS to go away when I disconnect the
single pintle electrically controlled EGR valve - so I suspect it's a
programming problem where the factory dialed in the EGR too early.
(the truck had had the problem as long as I've owned it - which means
the brand new engine installed when I got it has ALWAYS had the
problem - 100,000 km now on the engine and 368000 on the van). Passes
DriveClean with flying colours too. Better now than when the engine
was new (all 3 readings down to about half what they were when the
engine went in)

If I could get rid of that surge the gas mileage might improve from an
average of 13.5 l/100km.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On Thu, 22 May 2008 17:36:28 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben DeleteThis @greenba.com>
wrote:

>On May 22, 5:46 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:
>>
>> I just wish you didn't expect the rest of the country (and the world)
>> to pay for your "elixir" in higher food prices.
>>
>
>The cost of food world-wide has risen mainly because of the cost of
>energy, mainly gasoline and diesel. These fuels have doubled in price
>in only a few years.
>
>The US Dept. of Agriculture estimates that diversion of corn to
>ethanol production is at most responsible for a 5% rise in the cost of
>food.
>
>Clare, look further ahead! The price of oil is not going to go back
>to where it was. The world is running out of cheap oil. We need
>alternative liquid fuels in order to mitigate the disaster that is
>approaching as production from the world's oil wells slow down. It
>may already be happening. What will happen to world food prices when
>gasoline is $15 per gallon?
>
>Ben
If the price of Gasoline was $100 a gallon and we were producing
ethanol from non-food crops, and particularly from low fertilizer
intensive non-food crops(like legume straw) and waste, food prices
would not be as high as they are today (assuming the cost of natural
gas used to produce fertilizer did not follow the gasoline price)

The USDA estimates re the cost of feedgrains due to ethanol production
WILL be found to be grossly understated. I have farmer friends. The
fuel price is not NEARLY the whole picture. The fertilizer price
definitely comes into it - but vast increases in the production of
corn means a LOT more fertilizer is required - which puts the price up
even more than it would be just because of the oil price.

Using foodgrains for fuel is criminally irrisponsible in today's
world.Particularly as in-efficient a plant as corn.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On Thu, 22 May 2008 18:38:52 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben.RemoveThis@greenba.com>
wrote:

>Clare, I see by another of your posts that you are not opposed to
>ethanol as long as it is not derived from food sources.
>
>We can agree on that. Cellulosic ethanol is hard to make cheaply, but
>maybe that will change. On the other hand, methanol is not hard to
>make cheaply from sawdust, old newspapers, and the like. I hope FFV's
>can run on methanol as well.
>
>May it come along soon!
>
>Cheers,
>Ben
Methanol has other SERIOUS problems as a motor fuel. All of which
could likely be minimized with proper development.
First of all, it is extremely toxic (if swallowed)(but so is gasoline
- which is, however, much less palatable). Second of all it is
extremely agressive against most common materials used in automotive
applications.(read that as extremely corrosive)(it contributes to
oxidation).
Also, methanol fire is invisible. EXTRENMEly dangerous.

This is partly counterbalanced by the fact that methanol (the simplest
of all alcohols) breaks down very quickly, and other than by ingestion
is non-toxic. It is also less LIKELY to burn as it requires a lot more
heat to ignite, and has a higher lower flamability limit.

This also means cold staring on neet methanol is extremely dicey.
Ether starting is almost the standard for methanol engines (even for a
hot restart in many cases)

The beauty of Methanol is it can be produced from CO2 and Hydrogen.
Just think - combining hydrogen economy with greenhouse gas reduction
(although burning Methanol produces CO2.)

Production of methanol by the now common processes using natural gas
would obviously be a non-starter.

It mixes freely with water in any ratio, which can be good or bad.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On May 22, 8:36 pm, Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com> wrote:
> On May 22, 5:46 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:
>
>
>
> > I just wish you didn't expect the rest of the country (and the world)
> > to pay for your "elixir" in higher food prices.
>
> The cost of food world-wide has risen mainly because of the cost of
> energy, mainly gasoline and diesel. These fuels have doubled in price
> in only a few years.
>
> The US Dept. of Agriculture estimates that diversion of corn to
> ethanol production is at most responsible for a 5% rise in the cost of
> food.
>
> Clare, look further ahead! The price of oil is not going to go back
> to where it was. The world is running out of cheap oil. We need
> alternative liquid fuels in order to mitigate the disaster that is
> approaching as production from the world's oil wells slow down. It
> may already be happening. What will happen to world food prices when
> gasoline is $15 per gallon?
>
> Ben


Speculation, too. The real estate money (well, a good bit of it) ran
to the commodities market.


Dave
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

Uncle Ben wrote:

> The cost of food world-wide has risen mainly because of the cost of
> energy, mainly gasoline and diesel. These fuels have doubled in price
> in only a few years.

Hi,

Politely, let me call BS on that...

Food prices respond to EXACTLY the same forces oil prices do: SUPPLY AND
DEMAND.

The world can only supply so much of either at a given time. Yet we
continue, in a manner totally contrary to most of nature, to breed
ourselves into an excessive demand situation despite our supply not
rising at the same rate. You're a retired physicist/teacher, right? So
it should be no surprise to you to find that if "x" units of "supply"
divided by "y" number of "demanders" allows "z" units of supply per
demander, whenever you reduce "x" or increase "y" then "z" goes down,
too. If "z" must remain static for the system to "work," any change in
"x" or "y" is problematic, now, isn't it?

I appreciate everyone's tiny little efforts to "clean up this" or "use a
little less of that" but I'm afraid I cannot accept ANY solution that
doesn't also include a population control element is anything if not
partially to totally off base.

Rick
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

Uncle Ben wrote:

> The Indy cars run on methanol.

Hi,

Might want to check on that. IIRC, Indy cars completed the switch to
ethanol either last year or two years ago.

Lots of reasons were involved, economic, safety and political being
among them.

Regardless, what works on a track w/ vehicles that involve the
conditions of use and maintenance these cars see doesn't always play
well on the street.

Rick
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol 

On May 23, 3:25 pm, Rick Courtright <rcourtri....TakeThisOut@iname.com> wrote:
> Uncle Ben wrote:
> > The cost of food world-wide has risen mainly because of the cost of
> > energy, mainly gasoline and diesel.  These fuels have doubled in price
> > in only a few years.
>
> Hi,
>
> Politely, let me call BS on that...
>
> Food prices respond to EXACTLY the same forces oil prices do: SUPPLY AND
> DEMAND.
>
Of course, and I accept that diversion of corn from food to fuel
exerts an upward price pressure on food. But we can get
quantitative. How much pressure?

The US Dept. of Ag. has done this analysis and concludes that it
contributes 5% of the rise in world food prices.

But that is not the only input to the equation. The occurence of
drought in the world this year -- Australia is a good example -- also
contributes. Lesser supply of corn, again, higher price.

But the main contribution is the dramatic rise in the cost of energy
in the form of gasoline for farmers and of natural gas for fertilizer
manufacturers. You know about gasoline. Did you know that natural
gas -- widely used in fertilizer manufacturing -- has tripled in price
in the last year or so? Costs must be passed through.

You cite population pressure. That is quite true in China and India,
where not only has the population risen but also the wealth of that
population and their ability to command world resources has risen
sharply. There are traffic jams in Beijing and Calcutta! Greater
demand -- higher price.

So we can do more than just say "supply and demand." We can analyze
the problem further and find the coefficients of the input variables.

> I appreciate everyone's tiny little efforts to "clean up this" or "use a
> little less of that" but I'm afraid I cannot accept ANY solution that
> doesn't also include a population control element is anything if not
> partially to totally off base.
>
If we stay on topic and confine ourselves to the price of energy, I
would say that the success of capitalism in China and India has led
their populations not only to increase in numbers but, more
importantly, in wealth. The US demands lots of energy because it is
wealthy. China and India are becoming wealthy, and they want lots of
energy too.

But then there is the problem of peak oil. Whether it is now or in
twenty years, the oil wells of the world will start gradually to peter
out. A few large discoveries will postpone the day, but the day will
come when oil is just too scarce to burn for transportation. We will
use it for pharmaceuticals and other high value products.

So that is why we are starting to prepare for the future by exploring
biofuels. Some of us are eager to explore them now; others will be
dragged kicking and screaming into the game. When gasoline is $30 per
gallon, everybody will come on board.

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol