Dark Side of the Hybrids

JeB wrote in message

> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason DeleteThis @nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>
> >
> >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> >article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> >cover is September 2005.
> >
> >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> >really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> >article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> >those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> >will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> >to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
> >
>
> I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
> things is quite common these days.
>
>
See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html

Which reads, in part:
5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery lead, and
no other battery chemistry can come near that number.

Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are recycled
indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling and reusing
lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There is virtually no
recycling process for other chemistries, and it's hard to even imagine the cost
of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to what we
already have with lead-acid batteries.
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

In article , "Doug McCrary"
wrote:

> JeB wrote in message
>
> > On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason.RemoveThis@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> > >article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> > >cover is September 2005.
> > >
> > >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> > >really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> > >article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> > >those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> > >will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> > >to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
> > >
> >
> > I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
> > things is quite common these days.
> >
> >
> See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html
>
> Which reads, in part:
> 5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery lead, and
> no other battery chemistry can come near that number.
>
> Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are
recycled
> indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling and reusing
> lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There is virtually no
> recycling process for other chemistries, and it's hard to even imagine
the cost
> of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to what we
> already have with lead-acid batteries.

Hello,
You may be right. I have not done any research on this subject. Brock
Yates--the author of the article--stated the following in his article:
"[Batteries] are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They
are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of
these poisonous boxes will be deposited ... has yet to be considered, much
less resolved."
Jason

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 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

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 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote in message

> In article ,
> Elliot Richmond wrote:
>
>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>> and recycling:
>
> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>
> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.

.....and?
That's it?

Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

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 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason.TakeThisOut@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>
>The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>cover is September 2005.

Maybe the author of the article should have done a little actual
research. Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
and recycling:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20040623

How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?

The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been
designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the
battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never
fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty
easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles
with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle.
We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the
second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has
35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well.
Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36%
and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time
replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the
car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for
wear and tear.

Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?

Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has
been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric
Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the
precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is
recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery
has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers
are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.

Elliot Richmond
Freelance Science Writer and Editor
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

jason.RemoveThis@nospam.com (Jason) wrote in
55.snlo.dialup.fix.net:

>
> The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> cover is September 2005.
>
> Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
> If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> the article.
>
> Jason
>

Lead-acid and other types of batteries (NiCd and NiMH,Li-ion)are already
recycled,why should hybrid auto batteries escape that?

IMO,there would be valuable materials that could be recovered,in the
amounts that will be discarded.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

"Steve Bigelow" wrote in


>
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote in message
>
>> In article ,
>> Elliot Richmond wrote:
>>
>>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>>> and recycling:
>>
>> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>>
>> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.
>
> ....and?
> That's it?
>
> Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.
>
>
>

NiMH and NiCd can only be recharged a number of times before their capacity
drops off,and L-A batteries suffer from sulfation,electrolyte loss,and
vibration/shock damage(material falls out of the lead grids,shorts the
cell). Hot environments like the Southwest and Florida will shorten battery
life further.
I don't know of any rechargeable battery chemistry that can be recharged
100,000 times.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

>>Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead -- are
recycled indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling
and reusing lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years.<<

Only problem is: The high-voltage hybrid batteries are not lead-acid, but
nickel-metal-hydride (NiMH).

>>Brock Yates--the author of the article--stated the following in his
article: "[Batteries] are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled
vegetables. They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where
millions of these poisonous boxes will be deposited ... has yet to be
considered, much less resolved."<<

For Brock Yates, a reactionary conservative, to even mention recycling is
amazing all by itself...but that sounds to me as if he's making an
assumption. I'd like to hear what Honda and the other makers of hybrids
have to say about it.
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

>>All I'm saying is, Toyota is spinning their side of the story very
hard...In other words, never listen to a car salesman. And that's all that
PR piece is.<<

Right. However, according to you we should believe any yahoo who posts
under an assumed name in a newsgroup, without any proof whatsoever.

Thanks. I needed a good laugh today.
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason.RemoveThis@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:

>
>The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
>article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
>cover is September 2005.
>
>Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
>really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
>article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
>those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
>will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
>to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
>If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
>the article.
>
>Jason
Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting
40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that.
For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most
outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg
Hybrids are a Pr stunt only.
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

There is a new thing called "recycling"

"Jason" wrote in message

>
> The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
> article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
> cover is September 2005.
>
> Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
> really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
> article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
> those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
> will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
> to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>
> If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
> the article.
>
> Jason
>
> --
> NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
> We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
> We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids 

jason RemoveThis @nospam.com (Jason) wrote in


> In article , "Doug McCrary"
> wrote:
>
>> JeB wrote in message
>>
>> > On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:17:32 -0700, jason RemoveThis @nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an
>> > >interesting article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26.
>> > >The date on the cover is September 2005.
>> > >
>> > >Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because
>> > >they really care about the environment. I learned about something
>> > >from the article that I had never thought about before. What's
>> > >going to happen to those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles
>> > >after they wear out? They will be placed in landfills. Imagine the
>> > >harm that those batteries may do to the enviroment after they are
>> > >laying in a landfill for 50 years.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I don't know the specifics but it seems that recycling of such
>> > things is quite common these days.
>> >
>> >
>> See http://www.batterycouncil.org/news-edf_response.html
>>
>> Which reads, in part:
>> 5. It's hard to argue with a 97.1 percent recycling rate for battery
>> lead, and no other battery chemistry can come near that number.
>>
>> Car batteries are not disposed of. Their materials - mostly lead --
>> are
> recycled
>> indefinitely. The battery industry has been continuously recycling
>> and reusing lead from old car batteries for more than 50 years. There
>> is virtually no recycling process for other chemistries, and it's
>> hard to even imagine
> the cost
>> of developing a recycling process and infrastructure comparable to
>> what we already have with lead-acid batteries.
>
> Hello,
> You may be right. I have not done any research on this subject. Brock
> Yates--the author of the article--stated the following in his article:
> "[Batteries] are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables.
> They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where
> millions of these poisonous boxes will be deposited ... has yet to be
> considered, much less resolved."
> Jason
>

Well,it IS an additional expense that must be factored in.(recycling costs)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 >> Stay informed about: Dark Side of the Hybrids