Brake service - am I being lied to??

Ray O wrote:

"Richie" <beacheshome.DeleteThis@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:1123198893.265089.58450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >I took my 2003 Corolla to a major brake specialist recently and asked > them to exchange my winter/summer tires and inspect the brakes. I > hadn't experienced any problems other than some occasional light > squealing on the brakes so wanted to make sure the pads weren;'t > getting low. their report cam back that I need a rear brake service but > the front pads were fine - still had about 20% left so no immediate > rush to get them done. Immediately after leaving the dealership I > notice the brakes "rumbling" but thought it would settle down and "wear > in". The problem continued on and off for about two months and I > finally decided to take the car back. They telling me that my front > pads are almost completely gone, the right caliper is siezed and it's > going to be $ 330 to fix the problem. Am I crazy to think that they may > have accidentaly created the problem when they changed the tires and > did the last inspection? It doesn't make sense to me why the brakes > would be hunky dory until immediately after their service. > Any thoughts, advice or comments welcome. > The most likely scenario is that whoever inspected the front brakes only looked at the outer front pad and not the inner pad. By not looking more closely at the inner pad of both front wheels, they missed the stuck caliper slide. Uneven pad wear is usually caused by a stuck caliper slide. IMO, it is not so much that they created the problem, but that they didn't catch it earlier. Rotating or exchanging tires will not make a caliper seize. Improper use of an impact gun may warp brakes, which doesn't appear to have happened in your case.

I tend to agree with this but for what it is worth, at 20% left visable, it is time to change the pads then or in a few weeks tops, not if a few months. It is very rare that you wear evenly and usually the inner pad wear quicker too and calipers are more prone to stick too when pads get thin because on the addition leveraging side forces place on the puck when it is fully extended with worn pads. Myself, when I observe outer pads to be noticably less than 50% less I make it a point to change them in the near future and if I found a 20% on my vehicals, I would change them on the spot. (I do my own work) Their is no money to be saved trying to get the last miles out of a pad because if you wear then down too far in the process, it will be a lot more expensive to fix it.
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:49:50 -0500, Ray O wrote:

>
> "Richie" <beacheshome.TakeThisOut@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1123198893.265089.58450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>I took my 2003 Corolla to a major brake specialist recently and asked
>> them to exchange my winter/summer tires and inspect the brakes. I hadn't
>> experienced any problems other than some occasional light squealing on
>> the brakes so wanted to make sure the pads weren;'t getting low. their
>> report cam back that I need a rear brake service but the front pads were
>> fine - still had about 20% left so no immediate rush to get them done.
>> Immediately after leaving the dealership I notice the brakes "rumbling"
>> but thought it would settle down and "wear in". The problem continued on
>> and off for about two months and I finally decided to take the car back.
>> They telling me that my front pads are almost completely gone, the right
>> caliper is siezed and it's going to be $ 330 to fix the problem. Am I
>> crazy to think that they may have accidentaly created the problem when
>> they changed the tires and did the last inspection? It doesn't make
>> sense to me why the brakes would be hunky dory until immediately after
>> their service. Any thoughts, advice or comments welcome.
>>
>>
> The most likely scenario is that whoever inspected the front brakes only
> looked at the outer front pad and not the inner pad. By not looking more
> closely at the inner pad of both front wheels, they missed the stuck
> caliper slide. Uneven pad wear is usually caused by a stuck caliper
> slide.

Ya, Mon, tell me about it!
When I took my brakes apart the last two weekends, the outside pads had
about 60% left. The INNER pads were worn down to the nubs!!! And in both
cases, the slides were sticking. On the driver's side, the piston was not
retracting to boot.

So, our friend here probably took the car and had the brakes checked, and,
as you said, they looked at the outer pads first and saw plenty of meat
and failed to look at the inner pads. Two months have ground the inner
pads to nubs, and now, besides needing pads he needs rotors too.

But, chances are, the only thing wrong with the caliper is that the slide
is stuck; some emery cloth (a tip of the hat to the person that posted a
response to me when I had this problem 2 weeks ago...) and some anti-seize
will probably solve this problem, that and about 45 minutes is a hell of a
lot cheaper than what the brake shop is suggesting!

But, here's what else I had to do: I bought a Dremel-like tool that had
sanding cylinders and had to sand down the 'ring' that holds the boot and
the slide. This is what REALLY freed everything up; I polished the slides
with Emery cloth and 1500 grit SP just to make it nice and smooth...

>
> IMO, it is not so much that they created the problem, but that they didn't
> catch it earlier. Rotating or exchanging tires will not make a caliper
> seize. Improper use of an impact gun may warp brakes, which doesn't
> appear to have happened in your case.
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

"SnoMan" <UseLinkToEmail DeleteThis @AutoForumz.com> wrote in message
news:1_643399_41a822cbdc7b5c867a496d7ff233a149@autoforumz.com...

<snipped>

> "Ray O" wrote:

>>The most likely scenario is that whoever inspected the front brakes
>>only
>>looked at the outer front pad and not the inner pad. By not looking
>>more
>>closely at the inner pad of both front wheels, they missed the stuck
>>caliper
>>slide. Uneven pad wear is usually caused by a stuck caliper slide.
>>
>>IMO, it is not so much that they created the problem, but that they
>>didn't
>>catch it earlier. Rotating or exchanging tires will not make a
>>caliper
>>seize. Improper use of an impact gun may warp brakes, which
>>doesn't appear
>>to have happened in your case.
>
> I tend to agree with this but for what it is worth, at 20% left
> visable, it is time to change the pads then or in a few weeks tops,
> not if a few months.

The rule of thumb for pad replacement is 2 mm or less of lining thickness,
which takes the guesswork out of trying to figure out if there is 20% or 50%
pad life remaining.

It is very rare that you wear evenly and usually
> the inner pad wear quicker too and calipers are more prone to stick
> too when pads get thin because on the addition leveraging side forces
> place on the puck when it is fully extended with worn pads.

I guess I need to play the lottery more The inner and outer pads on the
cars I have worked on almost always wear evenly. It's either an incredible
streak of luck or the extra 10 minutes I take on each side cleaning up the
slides and calipers with a wire brush and emery cloth and applying
anti-seize...

Myself,
> when I observe outer pads to be noticably less than 50% less I make
> it a point to change them in the near future and if I found a 20% on
> my vehicals, I would change them on the spot. (I do my own work)
> Their is no money to be saved trying to get the last miles out of a
> pad because if you wear then down too far in the process, it will be a
> lot more expensive to fix it.
>

--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

"Richie" <beacheshome.DeleteThis@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1123198893.265089.58450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I took my 2003 Corolla to a major brake specialist recently and asked
> them to exchange my winter/summer tires and inspect the brakes. I
> hadn't experienced any problems other than some occasional light
> squealing on the brakes so wanted to make sure the pads weren;'t
> getting low. their report cam back that I need a rear brake service but
> the front pads were fine - still had about 20% left so no immediate
> rush to get them done. Immediately after leaving the dealership I
> notice the brakes "rumbling" but thought it would settle down and "wear
> in". The problem continued on and off for about two months and I
> finally decided to take the car back. They telling me that my front
> pads are almost completely gone, the right caliper is siezed and it's
> going to be $ 330 to fix the problem. Am I crazy to think that they may
> have accidentaly created the problem when they changed the tires and
> did the last inspection? It doesn't make sense to me why the brakes
> would be hunky dory until immediately after their service.
> Any thoughts, advice or comments welcome.


I wonder if they used an impact gun to over tighten the wheel lugs? That
could have warped the rotors.
--
-WJB
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

"Jeff Bertrand" <wjbertrand.RemoveThis@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6aCIe.1600$WD.71@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Richie" <beacheshome.RemoveThis@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1123198893.265089.58450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>I took my 2003 Corolla to a major brake specialist recently and asked
>> them to exchange my winter/summer tires and inspect the brakes. I
>> hadn't experienced any problems other than some occasional light
>> squealing on the brakes so wanted to make sure the pads weren;'t
>> getting low. their report cam back that I need a rear brake service but
>> the front pads were fine - still had about 20% left so no immediate
>> rush to get them done. Immediately after leaving the dealership I
>> notice the brakes "rumbling" but thought it would settle down and "wear
>> in". The problem continued on and off for about two months and I
>> finally decided to take the car back. They telling me that my front
>> pads are almost completely gone, the right caliper is siezed and it's
>> going to be $ 330 to fix the problem. Am I crazy to think that they may
>> have accidentaly created the problem when they changed the tires and
>> did the last inspection? It doesn't make sense to me why the brakes
>> would be hunky dory until immediately after their service.
>> Any thoughts, advice or comments welcome.
>
>
> I wonder if they used an impact gun to over tighten the wheel lugs? That
> could have warped the rotors.
> --
> -WJB
>
The OP wasn't complaining of brake pulsation so I doubt if that was the
problem. More likely, a stuck caliper slide.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

HI IM A TECH MYSELF,MOST BRAKES ARE REPLACED WITH 20% PAD REMANING,I PERSONALY WOULD HAVE PERFORMED A FOUR WHEEL BRAKE JOB,ACCORDING TO YOUR INFO,BUT IT IS REAL HARD TO SAY,THE REAR BRAKES MAY HAVE BEEN MISAJUSTED WHEN REPLACED,DUE TO BRAKE ROTORS NOT BEEING MACHINED,OR AFTER MARKET PADS BEING INSTALLED,CAUSING THE FRONT BRAKES TO DUE MOST OF THE BRAKING,AND WEARING OUT PREMATURE,MILES ON YOUR VEHICLE A BIG FACTOR.GOOD LUCK
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

Ray O wrote:

"SnoMan" <UseLinkToEmail DeleteThis @AutoForumz.com> wrote in message news:1_643399_41a822cbdc7b5c867a496d7ff233a149@autoforumz.com... <snipped> > "Ray O" wrote: >>The most likely scenario is that whoever inspected the front brakes >>only >>looked at the outer front pad and not the inner pad. By not looking >>more >>closely at the inner pad of both front wheels, they missed the stuck >>caliper >>slide. Uneven pad wear is usually caused by a stuck caliper slide. >> >>IMO, it is not so much that they created the problem, but that they >>didn't >>catch it earlier. Rotating or exchanging tires will not make a >>caliper >>seize. Improper use of an impact gun may warp brakes, which >>doesn't appear >>to have happened in your case. > > I tend to agree with this but for what it is worth, at 20% left > visable, it is time to change the pads then or in a few weeks tops, > not if a few months. The rule of thumb for pad replacement is 2 mm or less of lining thickness, which takes the guesswork out of trying to figure out if there is 20% or 50% pad life remaining. It is very rare that you wear evenly and usually > the inner pad wear quicker too and calipers are more prone to stick > too when pads get thin because on the addition leveraging side forces > place on the puck when it is fully extended with worn pads. I guess I need to play the lottery more The inner and outer pads on the cars I have worked on almost always wear evenly. It's either an incredible streak of luck or the extra 10 minutes I take on each side cleaning up the slides and calipers with a wire brush and emery cloth and applying anti-seize... Myself, > when I observe outer pads to be noticably less than 50% less I make > it a point to change them in the near future and if I found a 20% on > my vehicals, I would change them on the spot. (I do my own work) > Their is no money to be saved trying to get the last miles out of a > pad because if you wear then down too far in the process, it will be a > lot more expensive to fix it. >

Call it luck or what have you but while I have seen some wear even, usually on bigger vehicals they are not even and besides with 20% you do not keep driving it either.
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

RUDD wrote:

HI IM A TECH MYSELF,MOST BRAKES ARE REPLACED WITH 20% PAD REMANING,I PERSONALY WOULD HAVE PERFORMED A FOUR WHEEL BRAKE JOB,ACCORDING TO YOUR INFO,BUT IT IS REAL HARD TO SAY,THE REAR BRAKES MAY HAVE BEEN MISAJUSTED WHEN REPLACED,DUE TO BRAKE ROTORS NOT BEEING MACHINED,OR AFTER MARKET PADS BEING INSTALLED,CAUSING THE FRONT BRAKES TO DUE MOST OF THE BRAKING,AND WEARING OUT PREMATURE,MILES ON YOUR VEHICLE A BIG FACTOR.GOOD LUCK

Myself I like the softer after market pads because I would rather replace then a bit more often than use harder pad and have to replace rotors more often. I have had car go 200k plus on orignal rotors with no problems with softer pads.
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

Thanks for all of your input guys. Jeff and Ray's comments intrigue me.
If it makes any difference the brakes started pulsing IMMEDIATELY after
having the tires changed and it just got worse and worse. I know I'm
responsible for not returning the car right away but can I get some
opinions on what I should do if overtightening was a major contributing
factor to the problem?
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

Richie wrote:

Thanks for all of your input guys. Jeff and Ray's comments intrigue me. If it makes any difference the brakes started pulsing IMMEDIATELY after having the tires changed and it just got worse and worse. I know I'm responsible for not returning the car right away but can I get some opinions on what I should do if overtightening was a major contributing factor to the problem?

I would say that they warped the rotors for sure when the rotated the wheels from over torquing the lug nuts. Most (not all) mechics in service centers have two methods of operation with a impact wrench, on or off and they do not limit the torque on them and go for the gold when shooting the nuts down plus they rarely do it evenly. On a big old car or SUV it is not a issue but on a samller car this can warp the rotor/hub/drum big time sometimes. "If" you are lucky, you might be able to lossen up and retorque the nuts properly, the problem might go away but most likely you will have to replace them. I have no doubt they caused problem but getting them to admit it and pay for it is another matter completely.
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

"Richie" <beacheshome.TakeThisOut@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1123262038.864885.110460@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks for all of your input guys. Jeff and Ray's comments intrigue me.
> If it makes any difference the brakes started pulsing IMMEDIATELY after
> having the tires changed and it just got worse and worse. I know I'm
> responsible for not returning the car right away but can I get some
> opinions on what I should do if overtightening was a major contributing
> factor to the problem?
>

If it starting pulsing right after the brakes were inspected, then it
probably was caused by overtightening the wheel lugs. Otherwise, I believe
that the earlier responses about the caliper slides are right on target.

doug
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

FACTORY PADS BETTER HANDS DOWN,THE FIT OF THE PADS,THE PERFEORMANCE OF PAD,AND THE DURABILITY,I PERSONALY REPLACE ROTORS EVERY BRAKE SERVICE,ALL ROTORS BECOME WARPED TO SOME DEGREE,AND TURNING THE ROTORS,ONLY MAKE THE ROTORS BECOME HOTTER FASTER,AND WARP MORE QUICKLY,DUE TO NOT BEING ABLE TO DISAPATE HEAT AS WELL.
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to?? 

RUDD wrote:

FACTORY PADS BETTER HANDS DOWN,THE FIT OF THE PADS,THE PERFEORMANCE OF PAD,AND THE DURABILITY,I PERSONALY REPLACE ROTORS EVERY BRAKE SERVICE,ALL ROTORS BECOME WARPED TO SOME DEGREE,AND TURNING THE ROTORS,ONLY MAKE THE ROTORS BECOME HOTTER FASTER,AND WARP MORE QUICKLY,DUE TO NOT BEING ABLE TO DISAPATE HEAT AS WELL.

Dealers have to love you. I have never had to replace rotors on any of my vehicals yet in over 30 years as part of a normal brake job. I do not use factory type hard pads (I actually remove them from a new vehical well before they are even half worn) because when you brake there is a LOT of heat and friction and something has to give/wear in the process, either the pads or the rotor or both. I use softer pads that are easier on rotor and if I change them a bit more often, so what! I do agree on the turning of rotors and drums in general in that if you turn a warped rotor, you will have uneven metal thickness afterwards which will lead to further warpage, same with drums. When you cut material off a otherwise good rotor or drum, you reduce metal mass and reduce its resistance to warpage in the future. Also, very hard pads do increase the likely hood of rotor damage not only from their hardness but because they can cause "hot spots" on rotors surface from hard pads not "conforming to very minute imprefections in flatness of rotors surface causing hots spots and chatter that gets worse the hotter the rotors get.
 >> Stay informed about: Brake service - am I being lied to??