Battery replacement issue (big one)

afx wrote:

> Thats exactly what I thought it sounded like, but the thing is I put
> the battery cables on just like the old battery had them on,
>

"Just like the old battery had them on" doesn't mean jack squat, not all
batteries have the terminals in exactly the same locations. You MUST
look at the battery labels before connecting.

I suspect you've got a whole lot of fried electronics due to hooking it
up backwards.


> thing I was thinking of was the negative cable connected to the left
> side of that red post that the positive connects to the other side, is
> that correctly done?

That doesn't even make sense.
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

> Well the markings on the first picture have a negative on it so im
> sure thats the negative side, if that black cable connected to the red
> post is a negative cable then I did it right.
>

The negative cable should NEVER connect to anything "red." The
convention is that red=positive, black = negative.

Unless of course your dealing with home wiring, in which case there's
neither "positive" or "negative," just "hot" and "neutral."
Unfortunately, the convention THERE is that black=hot :-/
>
> Here is whats confusing me, I just put in a new battery, I didnt
> change anything else out, the car started fine before I put the new

Then WHY bother with a new battery? The old one was obviously fine.

> batt in.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

Henry Bemis wrote:

> Very true. Diodes don't like reversed voltage.

Actually, they don't mind reverse voltage at all. When you turn the car
off, the diodes are reverse-biased and conduct no current. With the car
running, they are forward-biased because the alternator is producing a
higher voltage than the battery, and therefore they carry the charging
current produced by the alternator. Unfortunately, what happens when you
put the battery in backwards is that the alternator diodes are FORWARD
biased, and create a short circuit. They then burn out trying to conduct
the full current provided by the battery.
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

afx wrote:

>>
>>Thank Chrysler for putting safe guards on their vehicles,
>>otherwise you'd be posting with a face full of battery acid.
>
>
> I appreciate that. /sarcasm
>

Why sarcasm? He was stone-cold serious. If the fusible link hadn't
popped, you'd have had a pretty good sized conflagration in your face.
Conservation of energy, y'know- all that energy in the battery has to go
SOMEWHERE, and it turns into heat. Lots of heat.
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

On Jul 14, 5:18 pm, afx <331... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> My wife's 1998 Concorde 3.2l was shutting down every once in a while
> and the battery was kind of old so I went over to walmart and got a
> MAXX-34s battery, I put it in and right when I put the negative
> terminal on it started spewing sparks (burned the hell out of my
> hand). I pulled the cable out and it stopped, now I had replaced the
> negative terminal connector just then with a new one. I noticed the
> auxiliary cable felt like it was severed and sure enough it was right
> in the middle of the green wire. Now I'm clueless on what else to do,
> I put the negative cable to the terminal just to see what it would do
> and the windshield wipers came on and wouldn't turn off, no fireworks
> this time but the windshield wiper thing bothers me.
>
> Any help would be appreciated!
>
> Ill update with some pictures in a minute.

All batteries are marked next to the post with the polarity. To match
up the cables when in doubt, ignore colors - someone else may have
worked on it - and follow the cables. All "current" cars I am aware of
(enough disclaimers?) are a negative ground system. (I have heard of
some old foriegn cars with positive ground but I don't believe there
are any now - bloggers please advise). In a negative ground, the
negative cable will always have a thick strap to bare metal of the
engine block, and usually an additional strap to the metal of the
frame or body. The positive will never have a strap to metal. It will
have a thick cable to the starter. Various systems have additional
cables, but the main thing to look for are connections to bare metal
of the engine/frame/body=negative.

The best advice I ever got when I first started playing with motorized
vehicles was to "look at what you're seeing".
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

Bill Putney wrote:
> afx wrote:
>> On Jul 14, 6:12 pm, Bill Putney <b... RemoveThis @kinez.net> wrote:
>>
>>> afx wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...the negative cable connected to the left
>>>> side of that red post that the positive connects to the other side, is
>>>> that correctly done?...
>>>
>>> Negative = black; positive = red (the opposite of the convention used in
>>> economics).
>>>
>>> Bill Putney
>>> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
>>> address with the letter 'x')
>>
>>
>> here are the pics.
>>
>>
>> http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb11/afxtwn/?action=view&current=IM..._006.jp
>>
>> pic of the cables in general including the thick black one I replaced
>> that I connected to negative.
>>
>> http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb11/afxtwn/?action=view&current=IM..._007.jp
>>
>> Auxiliary cable that got severed
>>
>> http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb11/afxtwn/?action=view&current=IM..._008.jp
>>
>> Picture of the positive battery terminal on the positive side of the
>> battery.
>>
>>
>> Hope this helps!
>
> Heck - I might as well pile on with everybody else.
>
> The big cable in your first photo that you connected to the negative
> terminal - that is your positive lead. The red block that it goes to is
> the point to which you would clamp the positive lead of a jumper cable
> if you were to jump it from another vehicle. BTW - that is the point
> from thru *all* power from the positive terminal of you battery gets to
> the rest of the vehicle (with the exception of the hot wire to the
> alternator). Notice there are three cables on that junction - one from
> the battery (the positive lead), one that is the hot wire to the
> starter, and the third is power to *everything* else. That third wire
> goes to that fusible link that Joe P. mentioned, again - it's red, and
> it is the positive power supply.
>
> And - BTW - I do see a "Plus" sign ("+") in your third photo (partially
> hidden) at the tip of the battery clamp bolt. So at least the pretty
> red felt donut is on the right post (Again - red for positive).
> Unfortunately the electrons don't pay attention to color.
>
> Your hope is that the reverse-voltage protection designed into your
> electronics was robust enough to protect them until the fusible link had
> time to open. If you come out unscathed in the electronics, count your
> blessings. If not, get familiar with www.car-part.com - it will save
> you lots of money.
>
> Stick to computers (your day for sarcasm) - except be aware that UPS
> batteries use the same wire color convention: Black is neg., red is pos.
> Also - inside the computer, on your power connectors, black is ground,
> other voltages are colors - one of which is red.

Hi Bill...

Arghhh, now that UPS's are in play, it's probably worth mentioning to
the OP (who confesses to being a newbie) that the AC supply to the
UPS throws another twist into it, with the black being the "dangerous"
one.

It's a plot.

Take care.

Ken
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

exiledtiger <cfkittel RemoveThis @ameritech.net> writes:
>
> The best advice I ever got when I first started playing with motorized
> vehicles was to "look at what you're seeing".

In fairness, sometimes it's awfully hard to realize that what you're
seeing doesn't look right. Checking all your assumptions is always
good advice, but the assumptions that are most embedded are so
subconcious you don't realize you're making them (there are a few
readers of this newsgroup who know me from other contexts, who will
remember some unbelievably ignorant questions I asked the first time
I did a tuneup on a car with an automatic transmission...)
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

Steve wrote:
> afx wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Thank Chrysler for putting safe guards on their vehicles,
>>> otherwise you'd be posting with a face full of battery acid.
>>
>>
>> I appreciate that. /sarcasm
>>
>
> Why sarcasm? He was stone-cold serious. If the fusible link hadn't
> popped, you'd have had a pretty good sized conflagration in your face.
> Conservation of energy, y'know- all that energy in the battery has to go
> SOMEWHERE, and it turns into heat. Lots of heat.

Hi...

Once upon a time when I was very young and foolish (now I'm very old
and even more foolish) I was working on my car after dusk... had a
metal clad flashlight. Put it down on the battery, shorting the top
posts.

Huge portions of the flashlight instantly disappeared. But it was
very very bright for a millisecond or so

Take care.

Ken
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

Steve wrote:
> Henry Bemis wrote:
>
>> Very true. Diodes don't like reversed voltage.
>
>
> Actually, they don't mind reverse voltage at all. When you turn the car
> off, the diodes are reverse-biased and conduct no current. With the car
> running, they are forward-biased because the alternator is producing a
> higher voltage than the battery, and therefore they carry the charging
> current produced by the alternator. Unfortunately, what happens when you
> put the battery in backwards is that the alternator diodes are FORWARD
> biased, and create a short circuit. They then burn out trying to conduct
> the full current provided by the battery.

Unless the fusible link - which is in series with the diodes and nothing
else - opened in time to keep the diodes from being destroyed.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

exiledtiger wrote:

> All batteries are marked next to the post with the polarity. To match
> up the cables when in doubt, ignore colors - someone else may have
> worked on it - and follow the cables. All "current" cars I am aware of
> (enough disclaimers?) are a negative ground system. (I have heard of
> some old foriegn cars with positive ground but I don't believe there
> are any now - bloggers please advise). In a negative ground, the
> negative cable will always have a thick strap to bare metal of the
> engine block,...

On this particular car, no. Cable goes directly to the negative jump
post/main body ground on the right front strut tower (and is clearly
labeled as the negative jump post). There is a heavy cable going off of
that neg. jump post that - I think - goes to the starter. There are
some braided grounding straps from the right fender well (approx. 6 or 8
inches from the neg. jump post) going to the engine block.

> and usually an additional strap to the metal of the
> frame or body. The positive will never have a strap to metal. It will
> have a thick cable to the starter...

But, in this car, not directly. There is a main cable going to the
positive jump post - the red thing shown in the OP's first photo. There
are two other cables from that pos. jump post - one goes to starter, the
third goes to everything else (except alternator/generator). The second
(smaller) wire coming off the battery cable clamp is the hot wire to the
alternator/gernator.


Various systems have additional
> cables, but the main thing to look for are connections to bare metal
> of the engine/frame/body=negative.
>
> The best advice I ever got when I first started playing with motorized
> vehicles was to "look at what you're seeing".

FWIW, the OP's replacement battery has the same post arrangement as the
original battery - but he has it rotated 180°. Perhaps the previous
battery had been installed backwards *OR* he made the change when he put
this battery in, but failed to re-arrange the cables to the opposite end
of the battery compartment.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:44:39 +0000, afx wrote:

> On Jul 14, 5:43 pm, afx <331....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thats exactly what I thought it sounded like, but the thing is I put
>> the battery cables on just like the old battery had them on, the weird
>> thing I was thinking of was the negative cable connected to the left
>> side of that red post that the positive connects to the other side, is
>> that correctly done? Maybe the old battery just didnt have enough juice
>> to give this reaction?
>
> And would you know why the windshield wipers wont turn off? is that
> because the auxiliary wire was severed? Thanks for the help!

The wiper controller is fried.

Most of the electronics in the car will need DC-DC converters, 12V is
much to high to high for modern electronics so the voltage has to be
converted to something usable (in the mid 90's that was probably 3.3V).
The DC to DC converter modules should be diode protected so most of your
electronic modules are probably OK. However the fact that the wiper
module is busted is a worrisome sign. It may be that the wiper module is
a relic of the 60s that ran directly off of 12V which is why it didn't
have any protection. The microprocessors in the car can't possible use
12V so I would guess that they are OK. However I'm a computer engineer
not an automotive electronics engineer so it's possible that I'm wrong.


For future reference Red means HOT, Black means GROUND.
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 21:47:26 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> exiledtiger <cfkittel.RemoveThis@ameritech.net> writes:
>>
>> The best advice I ever got when I first started playing with motorized
>> vehicles was to "look at what you're seeing".
>
> In fairness, sometimes it's awfully hard to realize that what you're
> seeing doesn't look right. Checking all your assumptions is always good
> advice, but the assumptions that are most embedded are so subconcious
> you don't realize you're making them (there are a few readers of this
> newsgroup who know me from other contexts, who will remember some
> unbelievably ignorant questions I asked the first time I did a tuneup on
> a car with an automatic transmission...)

Nothing concentrates the mind like the prospect of being hanged in the
morning.

Dr. Johnson


Shorting a car battery can be fatal, the OP is very lucky that he got off
with only a burned hand. When something is a life or death matter you
check and the check again. I can see how a professional mechanic might
get blase about batteries because they do it every day, but an amateur
should treat the thing like it's a landmine. I've always gotten my
replacement batteries at Sears, you leave the car for an hour, go to the
food court and get an Orange Julius, and come back when it's done.
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one) 

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> exiledtiger <cfkittel.DeleteThis@ameritech.net> writes:
>
>>The best advice I ever got when I first started playing with motorized
>>vehicles was to "look at what you're seeing".
>
>
> In fairness, sometimes it's awfully hard to realize that what you're
> seeing doesn't look right. Checking all your assumptions is always
> good advice, but the assumptions that are most embedded are so
> subconcious you don't realize you're making them (there are a few
> readers of this newsgroup who know me from other contexts, who will
> remember some unbelievably ignorant questions I asked the first time
> I did a tuneup on a car with an automatic transmission...)

Hmmmm.... sounds like I may have forgotten a good story...
 >> Stay informed about: Battery replacement issue (big one)