saab 9000cse poor running

Salutations:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:55:14 GMT, michael spencer via CarKB.com
<forum DeleteThis @nospam.CarKB.com> wrote:

 > i have a 93 saab 9000cse 2.0 16v the check engine light comes on it loses
 > power wont idle properly and has to be driven hard to make go.It has had
 > a
 > new cat, lambda sensor been to the main dealer and still i have no joy
 > ,the
 > car is normally lovely to drive could anybody give some advice,i dont
 > want
 > to get rid but i am at the end of my tether please help

Sounds like you're are triggering an intermittent Limp Mode (assuming
Trionic on your part) - and lord can that turn out to be obscure.

In my case, the car (1993 Aero) was triggering a whole series of different
Check Engine Lights - all of which went away for days, weeks or months if
you disconnected the battery for an appropriate length time according to
the CEL - but which were never permanently repaired by replacing the
suggested failure part.

As it turned out - it was a very slightly bent loom connector to the
firewall Safety Valve beside the MAP sensor - a sensor that was replaced a
couple of times. In my case that meant that every time a Tech would check
the resistance on the Safety Valve (it should be very close to 30 ohms)
and put the connector back together - it would run fine for about a week -
then fail again for no apparent reason.

Given you have been to the dealer and assuming they have properly checked
the safety valve and vacuum lines for correct parameters instead of just
plugging in the scanner - I would start looking over the loom for suspect
connections that feed the engine management computer(s).

It may well be that there is a problem with your Throttle Body or TCS
system - but I now think that should really be the last stop in a rather
longest trip through the wiring loom given my (and the previous owners)
experience.

--

Radio Free Dexterdyne Top Tune o'be-do-da-day
Patio Lanterns - Kim Mitchell
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/081.RAM" target="_blank">http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/081.RAM</a>

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 >> Stay informed about: saab 9000cse poor running 

Dexter J wrote:
 >
 > Salutations:
 >
 > On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:55:14 GMT, michael spencer via CarKB.com
 > <forum.RemoveThis@nospam.CarKB.com> wrote:
 >
  > > i have a 93 saab 9000cse 2.0 16v the check engine light comes on it loses
  > > power wont idle properly and has to be driven hard to make go.It has had
  > > a
  > > new cat, lambda sensor been to the main dealer and still i have no joy
  > > ,the
  > > car is normally lovely to drive could anybody give some advice,i dont
  > > want
  > > to get rid but i am at the end of my tether please help
 >
 > Sounds like you're are triggering an intermittent Limp Mode (assuming
 > Trionic on your part) - and lord can that turn out to be obscure.
 >
 > In my case, the car (1993 Aero) was triggering a whole series of different
 > Check Engine Lights - all of which went away for days, weeks or months if
 > you disconnected the battery for an appropriate length time according to
 > the CEL - but which were never permanently repaired by replacing the
 > suggested failure part.
 >
 > As it turned out - it was a very slightly bent loom connector to the
 > firewall Safety Valve beside the MAP sensor - a sensor that was replaced a
 > couple of times. In my case that meant that every time a Tech would check
 > the resistance on the Safety Valve (it should be very close to 30 ohms)
 > and put the connector back together - it would run fine for about a week -
 > then fail again for no apparent reason.
 >
 > Given you have been to the dealer and assuming they have properly checked
 > the safety valve and vacuum lines for correct parameters instead of just
 > plugging in the scanner - I would start looking over the loom for suspect
 > connections that feed the engine management computer(s).
 >
 > It may well be that there is a problem with your Throttle Body or TCS
 > system - but I now think that should really be the last stop in a rather
 > longest trip through the wiring loom given my (and the previous owners)
 > experience.

The can be many other reasons for poor running. I've had a few of those
for my 9000 of same age, but not recently (or I would probably have
written about it here). It would help if he can give more specific symptoms.
The problems are often trivial and when you find the cause you shout:
"Oh why didn't I think of that".<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: saab 9000cse poor running 

Salutations:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:36:14 GMT, Johannes
<johs.TakeThisOut@spamblock46437sizefitter.com> wrote:
 > Dexter J wrote:
  >>
  >> Salutations:
  >>
  >> On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:55:14 GMT, michael spencer via CarKB.com
  >> <forum.TakeThisOut@nospam.CarKB.com> wrote:
  >>
   >> > i have a 93 saab 9000cse 2.0 16v the check engine light comes on it
  >> loses
   >> > power wont idle properly and has to be driven hard to make go.It has
  >> had
   >> > a
   >> > new cat, lambda sensor been to the main dealer and still i have no joy
   >> > ,the
   >> > car is normally lovely to drive could anybody give some advice,i dont
   >> > want
   >> > to get rid but i am at the end of my tether please help
  >>
  >> Sounds like you're are triggering an intermittent Limp Mode (assuming
  >> Trionic on your part) - and lord can that turn out to be obscure.
 >
 > The can be many other reasons for poor running. I've had a few of those
 > for my 9000 of same age, but not recently (or I would probably have
 > written about it here). It would help if he can give more specific
 > symptoms.
 > The problems are often trivial and when you find the cause you shout:
 > "Oh why didn't I think of that".

I guess the problem really comes down to when is a cigar actually a cigar,
doesn't it? In the case of fully electronically controlled, interfaced and
fired engine systems - you have to actually spark it up (so to speak) to
find out.

In my case, I know in my heart that a long and fairly deep hand check
though the electrical loom is going to consume a large part of the coming
summer if I want to eliminate the basic loom from future bug hunts down
the road.

I suppose that is to be expected given the 11 or so years my particular
machine has been on the road. In fact, I think I can safely comment that
it will be the challenge in the coming years for anyone who haunts the
'Utility Classic' end of the general automotive market on pretty much any
make or model.

Actually - I think I'll start a new thread..

--

Radio Free Dexterdyne Top Tune o'be-do-da-day
Patio Lanterns - Kim Mitchell
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/081.RAM" target="_blank">http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/081.RAM</a>

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 >> Stay informed about: saab 9000cse poor running 

the head gasket is fine,when you drive it its great then for no reason the
check engine warning comes on ,it then barely manages to tick over and it
has a flat spot on the accelerater,if its in gear it ticks over if not it
then stalls its an automatic which doesent help.it came on today the check
engine light i lifted the boneet checked some wires out it then later on
went out and drives fine again,i like the car its just an annoying problem
i dont know what to look for or were to look any advice would be a weight
off my mind,the saab dealer found the lambda sensor faulty and the wiring
,but they had it back 3 times its ran for 6 months no problems then back as
it was before again thanks for any help,nice to know that people are
willing to help

--
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 >> Stay informed about: saab 9000cse poor running 

Salutations:

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:55:25 GMT, michael spencer via CarKB.com
<forum.DeleteThis@CarKB.com> wrote:
 >
 > the head gasket is fine,when you drive it its great then for no reason
 > the
 > check engine warning comes on ,it then barely manages to tick over and it
 > has a flat spot on the accelerater,if its in gear it ticks over if not it
 > then stalls its an automatic which doesent help.it came on today the
 > check
 > engine light i lifted the boneet checked some wires out it then later on
 > went out and drives fine again,i like the car its just an annoying
 > problem
 > i dont know what to look for or were to look any advice would be a weight
 > off my mind,the saab dealer found the lambda sensor faulty and the wiring
 > ,but they had it back 3 times its ran for 6 months no problems then back
 > as
 > it was before again thanks for any help,nice to know that people are
 > willing to help

Yes - that is the limp mode kicking in.

If you stop and turn off the car, then turn the key to the on position
without starting - it will flash the check engine light for a hint
(although a vague one because it can be *anything* connected to the
indicated faulty system):

2 flashes - Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor
3 flashes - Intake Air Temperature sensor
4 flashes - Coolant Temperature Sensor
5 flashes - Throttle Position Sensor
6 flashes - O2 Sensor
7 flashes - Adaptation
8 flashes - Purge valve
9 flashes - ECM fault

Get someone who knows how to use a voltmeter to check the Safety Valve on
the firewall for (approx) 30 ohms resistance when the engine is hot. After
that - you need to check for loose vacuum hoses all around the MAP sensor
(rectangular block beside the Safety Valve on the firewall) and finally
check all the hoses and wire connections around and under the intake
manifold.

Really - the Trionic system isn't *truly* a standalone digital engine
management system. It relies heavily on several electro-mechanical devices
and sensors to feed it. In my own case, a number of these devices and
sensors were replaced to no avail by myself and the previous owner -
because the actual connector on one of them was simply misaligned and
would present false resistances to the computer.

Hence my other thread..

The fact that it operates correctly again when you "check around the
wires" and close the hood is interesting.

In my case, my shop (Halifax Autosports) and I finally clued to the fact
that the machine would normally fail when Mrs Dexter J would be out and
about with the kids (with all the long, concerned conversations about the
wisdom of buying a 'Utility Classic' those sort of problems bring about).

... :/ ..

Basically - when one of the kids hopped in the front seat and slammed the
door - they would jog the connector enough so that it would momentarily
loose connection enough to change resistance and thereby trigger one of
many erroneous CEL codes as noted above. That was finally the tip that
lead Mr Parson's and I down the right path. Basically - the computer and
scanner were being feed incorrect data - which then lead to incorrect
diagnoses by *several* shops and dealers down the line before and after I
bought her.

It was maddening and remarkably expensive to finally figure that out - I
can assure you. On the other hand, I have a lot of fresh sensors, intake
and ignition components on the car that are likely to last for quite a
while longer I suppose. I even have a spare DI cassette now.

Which brings up another piece of advise, never throw away a replaced part
for a while after the repair - it may be that it was perfectly fine in
first place.

Anyway - don't be afraid to poke around under the hood yourself, I
actually set-up a quick disconnect on the battery to reset codes over the
winter while we worked it through.

--

Radio Free Dexterdyne Top Tune o'be-do-da-day
Patio Lanterns - Kim Mitchell
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/081.RAM" target="_blank">http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/081.RAM</a>

all tunes - no cookies no subscription no weather no ads
no news no phone in no sign up required - all the Time<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: saab 9000cse poor running