900 T16 1989 Turbo problems

Hi...
What shows the turbo pressure needle, i.e what's the pressure in low/high
revs (under load, say when going up the hill)?

Jindra


On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:27:24 +0100, Felix Holm <felix.femke DeleteThis @planet.nl>
wrote:

 > Hello,
 >
 > I have a 1989 900 Turbo 16v with the following problem.
 >
 > When driving away my Saab is lacking power. It used to deliver more power
 > when driving at low revs.
 > At low revs (2000 rpm) I hear the turbo spooling up, but it is not
 > delivering power.
 > When I am at full throttle it's power delivering is normal.
 >
 > So I thought it has nothing to do with the Turbo itself.
 > Is there any "valve" or "switch" that can block or regulate the building
 > up
 > of presure from the turbo?
 >
 > I noticed once or twice that after I moved the Throttle Position Sensor a
 > little bit the low power came back. That only lasted a few days, after
 > that
 > the power was gone. The terminals are checked with continuity or not. The
 > readings were ok.
 >
 > I didn't find any air leaks in the vacuum system.
 >
 > Can somebody help me please.....
 >
 >
 > Grtnx Felix
 >
 >



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 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz RemoveThis @spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:2vcrqoF2ka4vuU1@uni-berlin.de...
 > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:27:24 +0100, Felix Holm <felix.femke RemoveThis @planet.nl>
 > wrote:
  >> Hello,
  >>
  >> I have a 1989 900 Turbo 16v with the following problem.
  >>
  >> When driving away my Saab is lacking power. It used to deliver more power
  >> when driving at low revs.
  >> At low revs (2000 rpm) I hear the turbo spooling up, but it is not
  >> delivering power.
  >> When I am at full throttle it's power delivering is normal.
 >
 > Where does the needle go on the boost valve? Into the red, or just
 > yellow, or white? Is that down from normal?

In boost the needle goes to the end of the yellow zone, not into the red.

  >>
  >> So I thought it has nothing to do with the Turbo itself.
 >
 > Unless your turbo is making whiny, grindy noises, yes, it is unlikely
 > to be the turbo itself but rather something telling the pressure to
 > be reduced.

No, it's not making any strange noises.
What I noticed was that the engine is strugeling to deliver the power.
Reving the engine is hard work, and the engine makes more (not strange)
noise.

 >
  >> Is there any "valve" or "switch" that can block or regulate the building
  >> up
  >> of presure from the turbo?
 >
 > Yes, any number of things can open up the wastegate, making you lose
 > top-end power. Easiest would be something physically rattling in the
 > engine compartment, making the engine management (APC system) think you
 > are having predetonation (ping) and backing off the boost. Do you
 > have any rattles? How about air leaks? did it get worse all of the
 > sudden,
 > or gradually?

The strange thing is that I don't lose top-end power. It's just the power in
the beginning.
When I press the pedal down it takes some time (much longer than it used to)
to give me pressure, although the turbo is spinning. On the gauge it's not
building up pressure at that moment. Later on it's building up normal.
So it's really the low-end power I'm missing.

I lost my power all of a sudden, not gradually.
Strange thing is that it came back sometimes after I turned the TPS a little
bit. But that lasted no longer than a week.

I hope this gives you a bit more information.
 >
  >> I didn't find any air leaks in the vacuum system.
  >> Can somebody help me please.....
 >
 > We'll get there, there's really not too much that can go wrong in that
 > area, and most fixes are inexpensive.

I hope we find the solution

Grtnx Felix
 >
 > Dave Hinz
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:49:40 +0100, Felix Holm <felix.femke RemoveThis @planet.nl> wrote:
 >
 > "Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz RemoveThis @spamcop.net> wrote in message
 > news:2vcrqoF2ka4vuU1@uni-berlin.de...

  >> Where does the needle go on the boost valve? Into the red, or just
  >> yellow, or white? Is that down from normal?
 >
 > In boost the needle goes to the end of the yellow zone, not into the red.

So you're getting only basic boost then, I think.

  >> Unless your turbo is making whiny, grindy noises, yes, it is unlikely
  >> to be the turbo itself but rather something telling the pressure to
  >> be reduced.

 > No, it's not making any strange noises.

Good. So mechanically we're sound then, it's just an engine management
problem.

  >> Yes, any number of things can open up the wastegate, making you lose
  >> top-end power. Easiest would be something physically rattling in the
  >> engine compartment, making the engine management (APC system) think you
  >> are having predetonation (ping) and backing off the boost. Do you
  >> have any rattles? How about air leaks? did it get worse all of the
  >> sudden,
  >> or gradually?
 >
 > The strange thing is that I don't lose top-end power. It's just the power in
 > the beginning.

That's puzzling.

 > When I press the pedal down it takes some time (much longer than it used to)
 > to give me pressure, although the turbo is spinning. On the gauge it's not
 > building up pressure at that moment. Later on it's building up normal.
 > So it's really the low-end power I'm missing.


 > I lost my power all of a sudden, not gradually.
 > Strange thing is that it came back sometimes after I turned the TPS a little
 > bit. But that lasted no longer than a week.

What's a TPS in this context, please?

 > I hope this gives you a bit more information.

I wonder if your AMM's internal adjustable resister is the next thing
to check. Do you have an ohmmeter? Anyone else want to jump in here,
I'm not getting a good picture of it yet.

Dave<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

Hello,

   >>> Where does the needle go on the boost valve? Into the red, or just
   >>> yellow, or white? Is that down from normal?
  >>
  >> In boost the needle goes to the end of the yellow zone, not into the red.
 >
 > So you're getting only basic boost then, I think.

This is what it always did. So there has nothing changed.

   >>> Yes, any number of things can open up the wastegate, making you lose
   >>> top-end power. Easiest would be something physically rattling in the
   >>> engine compartment, making the engine management (APC system) think you
   >>> are having predetonation (ping) and backing off the boost. Do you
   >>> have any rattles? How about air leaks? did it get worse all of the
   >>> sudden,
   >>> or gradually?
  >>
  >> The strange thing is that I don't lose top-end power. It's just the power
  >> in
  >> the beginning.
 >
 > That's puzzling.

It feels like some valve/sensor is blocking the boost at low revs.
It also feels like it accelerates with little, hardly noticable, hickups.
Like if a regulator is gradually allowing more boost as the revs go up.
Difficult to explain in a foreign language (I'm Dutch)
See below..
 >
  >> When I press the pedal down it takes some time (much longer than it used
  >> to)
  >> to give me pressure, although the turbo is spinning. On the gauge it's
  >> not
  >> building up pressure at that moment. Later on it's building up normal.
  >> So it's really the low-end power I'm missing.
 >
 >
  >> I lost my power all of a sudden, not gradually.
  >> Strange thing is that it came back sometimes after I turned the TPS a
  >> little
  >> bit. But that lasted no longer than a week.
 >
 > What's a TPS in this context, please?

Throttle position sensor.
The switch that tells how far the throttle valve is open.

 >
  >> I hope this gives you a bit more information.
 >
 > I wonder if your AMM's internal adjustable resister is the next thing
 > to check. Do you have an ohmmeter? Anyone else want to jump in here,
 > I'm not getting a good picture of it yet.

What is the AMM ????
Air Mass Meter????
I have an ohmmeter.
Tell me where and what to mesure please.


Grtnx Felix<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:59:40 +0100, Felix Holm <felix.femke.DeleteThis@planet.nl> wrote:
 > Hello,
 >
   >>>> Where does the needle go on the boost valve? Into the red, or just
   >>>> yellow, or white? Is that down from normal?
   >>>
   >>> In boost the needle goes to the end of the yellow zone, not into the red.
  >>
  >> So you're getting only basic boost then, I think.
 >
 > This is what it always did. So there has nothing changed.

That may also be a problem, but maybe not related.

 > It feels like some valve/sensor is blocking the boost at low revs.
 > It also feels like it accelerates with little, hardly noticable, hickups.
 > Like if a regulator is gradually allowing more boost as the revs go up.
 > Difficult to explain in a foreign language (I'm Dutch)

No, your English is just fine, no problems there at all getting your
point across. If you hadn't said something, I wouldn't have noticed.

   >>> I lost my power all of a sudden, not gradually.
   >>> Strange thing is that it came back sometimes after I turned the TPS a
   >>> little
   >>> bit. But that lasted no longer than a week.
  >>
  >> What's a TPS in this context, please?
 >
 > Throttle position sensor.

Is that just a wide-open throttle switch, or what does the '89 have?

 > The switch that tells how far the throttle valve is open.

Right. This will give you extra fuel, and a few other things change,
when the throttle is wide open. You should not have that switch
activated except near and at wide-open.

  >> I wonder if your AMM's internal adjustable resister is the next thing
  >> to check. Do you have an ohmmeter? Anyone else want to jump in here,
  >> I'm not getting a good picture of it yet.
 >
 > What is the AMM ????
 > Air Mass Meter????

Yes. There is an adjustment (potentiometer) behind the round brass
plug (about 8mm in diameter). There are two pins on the connector which
are across the bridge circuit in question, I don't recall which pins, I
don't recall the resistance it should be, and I lent that particular manual
out to someone who has chosen not to return it.

 > I have an ohmmeter.
 > Tell me where and what to mesure please.

It's a long shot, but worth trying. By any chance, does it get better
or worse in cold weather? The colder the weather, the more likely you are
to run into this problem.

Dave Hinz<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

Felix,
I have the manual ("Vraagbaak" ) in Dutch.
Can look up some things for you, or send some scanned pages.
The AMM check is in that manual.

Where are you located? I am in Utrecht.

Richard.

"Felix Holm" <felix.femke.DeleteThis@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:cn0cr2$2lr$1@reader13.wxs.nl...
 > Hello,
 >
   > >>> Where does the needle go on the boost valve? Into the red, or just
   > >>> yellow, or white? Is that down from normal?
   > >>
   > >> In boost the needle goes to the end of the yellow zone, not into the
red.
  > >
  > > So you're getting only basic boost then, I think.
 >
 > This is what it always did. So there has nothing changed.
 >
   > >>> Yes, any number of things can open up the wastegate, making you lose
   > >>> top-end power. Easiest would be something physically rattling in the
   > >>> engine compartment, making the engine management (APC system) think
you
   > >>> are having predetonation (ping) and backing off the boost. Do you
   > >>> have any rattles? How about air leaks? did it get worse all of the
   > >>> sudden,
   > >>> or gradually?
   > >>
   > >> The strange thing is that I don't lose top-end power. It's just the
power
   > >> in
   > >> the beginning.
  > >
  > > That's puzzling.
 >
 > It feels like some valve/sensor is blocking the boost at low revs.
 > It also feels like it accelerates with little, hardly noticable, hickups.
 > Like if a regulator is gradually allowing more boost as the revs go up.
 > Difficult to explain in a foreign language (I'm Dutch)
 > See below..
  > >
   > >> When I press the pedal down it takes some time (much longer than it
used
   > >> to)
   > >> to give me pressure, although the turbo is spinning. On the gauge it's
   > >> not
   > >> building up pressure at that moment. Later on it's building up normal.
   > >> So it's really the low-end power I'm missing.
  > >
  > >
   > >> I lost my power all of a sudden, not gradually.
   > >> Strange thing is that it came back sometimes after I turned the TPS a
   > >> little
   > >> bit. But that lasted no longer than a week.
  > >
  > > What's a TPS in this context, please?
 >
 > Throttle position sensor.
 > The switch that tells how far the throttle valve is open.
 >
  > >
   > >> I hope this gives you a bit more information.
  > >
  > > I wonder if your AMM's internal adjustable resister is the next thing
  > > to check. Do you have an ohmmeter? Anyone else want to jump in here,
  > > I'm not getting a good picture of it yet.
 >
 > What is the AMM ????
 > Air Mass Meter????
 > I have an ohmmeter.
 > Tell me where and what to mesure please.
 >
 >
 > Grtnx Felix
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

Salutations:

Felix - this has nothing whatever to do with your problem - but could you
tell me if there is any difference between your (Dutch) home electrical
systems and mine (Canadian, North American)? Any chance this tuner might
work in North America without a special 110v adapter?

http://www.marktplaats.nl/markt/audio/tuners/12750.htm

--

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 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

Salutations:

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:56:51 GMT, Dexter J
<lamealameadingdong DeleteThis @lamelamelame.org> wrote:

 > Salutations:
 >
 > Felix - this has nothing whatever to do with your problem - but could
 > you tell me if there is any difference between your (Dutch) home
 > electrical systems and mine (Canadian, North American)? Any chance this
 > tuner might work in North America without a special 110v adapter?
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.marktplaats.nl/markt/audio/tuners/12750.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.marktplaats.nl/markt/audio/tuners/12750.htm</font</a>>

Sorry to have intruded - never mind - the unit is appearently sold. Rats..

--

Radio Free Dexterdyne Top Tune o'be-do-da-day
Bill Monroe - Blue Moon of Kentucky
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/009.RAM" target="_blank">http://www.dexterdyne.org/888/009.RAM</a>

all tunes - no cookies no subscription no weather no ads
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 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz.RemoveThis@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:2vheo5F2lkcbtU1@uni-berlin.de...
 > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:49:40 +0100, Felix Holm <felix.femke.RemoveThis@planet.nl>
wrote:
  > >
  > > "Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz.RemoveThis@spamcop.net> wrote in message
  > > news:2vcrqoF2ka4vuU1@uni-berlin.de...
 >
   > >> Where does the needle go on the boost valve? Into the red, or just
   > >> yellow, or white? Is that down from normal?
  > >
  > > In boost the needle goes to the end of the yellow zone, not into the
red.
 >
 > So you're getting only basic boost then, I think.
 >
   > >> Unless your turbo is making whiny, grindy noises, yes, it is unlikely
   > >> to be the turbo itself but rather something telling the pressure to
   > >> be reduced.
 >
  > > No, it's not making any strange noises.
 >
 > Good. So mechanically we're sound then, it's just an engine management
 > problem.
 >
   > >> Yes, any number of things can open up the wastegate, making you lose
   > >> top-end power. Easiest would be something physically rattling in the
   > >> engine compartment, making the engine management (APC system) think you
   > >> are having predetonation (ping) and backing off the boost. Do you
   > >> have any rattles? How about air leaks? did it get worse all of the
   > >> sudden,
   > >> or gradually?
  > >
  > > The strange thing is that I don't lose top-end power. It's just the
power in
  > > the beginning.
 >
 > That's puzzling.
 >
 >

This car doesn't use a vacuum advance on the ignition does it? I've seen
some problems similar to that from sticking advance mechanisms on other
cars.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

Hello,


   >>> I wonder if your AMM's internal adjustable resister is the next thing
   >>> to check. Do you have an ohmmeter? Anyone else want to jump in here,
   >>> I'm not getting a good picture of it yet.
  >>
  >> What is the AMM ????
  >> Air Mass Meter????
 >
OK, checked the AMM. Works like it should be.


 > Yes. There is an adjustment (potentiometer) behind the round brass
 > plug (about 8mm in diameter). There are two pins on the connector which
 > are across the bridge circuit in question, I don't recall which pins, I
 > don't recall the resistance it should be, and I lent that particular
 > manual
 > out to someone who has chosen not to return it.

I have bought the manual myself. Still can't find the cause of my problem:-(


 >
  >> I have an ohmmeter.
  >> Tell me where and what to mesure please.
 >
 > It's a long shot, but worth trying. By any chance, does it get better
 > or worse in cold weather? The colder the weather, the more likely you are
 > to run into this problem.
I don't notice a big diference between warm or cold weather.
What I think is that it must be the AIC valve or the wastegate.

Do you, or anybody else, know what influences both valves??
I mean who tells them to open or close?
Maybe I can get a bit closer to solving my problem.


Grtnx Felix<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems 

Hello,

I just bought the Official Service Manual.

It's always better to have something in Dutch
Please mail me a scan of some test to do for my problem (AMM, AIC,
Wastegate).

Thank you very much!!

Bedankt,

Felix


"OKOK!" <root.DeleteThis@localhost.com> wrote in message
news:4193d909$0$46385$cd19a363@news.euronet.nl...
 > Felix,
 > I have the manual ("Vraagbaak" ) in Dutch.
 > Can look up some things for you, or send some scanned pages.
 > The AMM check is in that manual.
 >
 > Where are you located? I am in Utrecht.
 >
 > Richard.
 >
 > "Felix Holm" <felix.femke.DeleteThis@planet.nl> wrote in message
 > news:cn0cr2$2lr$1@reader13.wxs.nl...
  >> Hello,
  >>
   >> >>> Where does the needle go on the boost valve? Into the red, or just
   >> >>> yellow, or white? Is that down from normal?
   >> >>
   >> >> In boost the needle goes to the end of the yellow zone, not into the
 > red.
   >> >
   >> > So you're getting only basic boost then, I think.
  >>
  >> This is what it always did. So there has nothing changed.
  >>
   >> >>> Yes, any number of things can open up the wastegate, making you lose
   >> >>> top-end power. Easiest would be something physically rattling in the
   >> >>> engine compartment, making the engine management (APC system) think
 > you
   >> >>> are having predetonation (ping) and backing off the boost. Do you
   >> >>> have any rattles? How about air leaks? did it get worse all of the
   >> >>> sudden,
   >> >>> or gradually?
   >> >>
   >> >> The strange thing is that I don't lose top-end power. It's just the
 > power
   >> >> in
   >> >> the beginning.
   >> >
   >> > That's puzzling.
  >>
  >> It feels like some valve/sensor is blocking the boost at low revs.
  >> It also feels like it accelerates with little, hardly noticable, hickups.
  >> Like if a regulator is gradually allowing more boost as the revs go up.
  >> Difficult to explain in a foreign language (I'm Dutch)
  >> See below..
   >> >
   >> >> When I press the pedal down it takes some time (much longer than it
 > used
   >> >> to)
   >> >> to give me pressure, although the turbo is spinning. On the gauge it's
   >> >> not
   >> >> building up pressure at that moment. Later on it's building up normal.
   >> >> So it's really the low-end power I'm missing.
   >> >
   >> >
   >> >> I lost my power all of a sudden, not gradually.
   >> >> Strange thing is that it came back sometimes after I turned the TPS a
   >> >> little
   >> >> bit. But that lasted no longer than a week.
   >> >
   >> > What's a TPS in this context, please?
  >>
  >> Throttle position sensor.
  >> The switch that tells how far the throttle valve is open.
  >>
   >> >
   >> >> I hope this gives you a bit more information.
   >> >
   >> > I wonder if your AMM's internal adjustable resister is the next thing
   >> > to check. Do you have an ohmmeter? Anyone else want to jump in here,
   >> > I'm not getting a good picture of it yet.
  >>
  >> What is the AMM ????
  >> Air Mass Meter????
  >> I have an ohmmeter.
  >> Tell me where and what to mesure please.
  >>
  >>
  >> Grtnx Felix
  >>
  >>
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: 900 T16 1989 Turbo problems