'86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt

William Noble wrote:
> clark's garage has a good faq
> it's not hard, but on your car, you may or may not have the spring tensioner
> for the timing belt - find that out - if you have the spring tensioner it's
> easier, but be sure you remove the tensioner, don't try to work the belt
> around it or you will be very very unhappy (trust me on this one).

Thanks. I found the FAQ at Clark's, and that helped a lot. I also
looked for the timing belt and balance belt online. I was surprised to
see that the balance belt is about twice as expensive as the timing belt.

> If you have the manual (no spring) tensioner, you will want to make or buy
> the wrench to turn the odd sized nut that tensions the belt - set it "about
> right" based on what the old one felt like, rotate engine by hand and see
> that all is well and it still feels "about right", then start car and let it
> idle - if belt flaps, it's too loose, tighten "just a bit". If you hear a
> whine that sounds like a rootes blower (supercharger), it's too tight,
> loosen it.

I suspect I've got the manual (no spring), but that's first on my list
to check. Are there any other components I'm likely to need (or should
replace) beyond the two belts? I'm at about 150K miles now.
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

> I suspect I've got the manual (no spring), but that's first on my list
> to check. Are there any other components I'm likely to need (or should
> replace) beyond the two belts? I'm at about 150K miles now.

I would recommend you replace all the rollers, particularly !!!! the timing
belt tensioning roller. If you see any evidence of an oil leak from the
front seal, it is expedient to replace it at the same time - and same for
balance shaft seals. Also, inspect water pump - on my 85.5, the original
pump started to leak at 90K miles, the replacement pump is still operational
and not leaking at over 250K miles

balance shaft belt has teeth on both sides - that makes it cost more.

Gates makes a tool called "klickit" for testing belt tension - it's cheap,
$10 - you can use one of those to build your confidence, but the "whine or
flap" test I described is what I do, and it has never failed me. But,
remember, if the timing belt breaks, you will damage valves, and it will
cost you about $600 in parts plus your labor to remove head and have it
fixed.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

I have removed the balance shaft belts on both my 944s. They just rob
power and create other problems.
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

How does that affect engine idle smoothness? Can you tell much of a
difference?

"darthpup" <amchitka DeleteThis @mailexcite.com> wrote in message
news:ce4ee636-3fdc-4a35-9519-c74801b8886c@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>I have removed the balance shaft belts on both my 944s. They just rob
> power and create other problems.
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

there is a significant difference in smoothness - that's why Porsche added
them -

"Nut that holds the wheel" <kraskamess RemoveThis @dakotacomm.net> wrote in message
news:KvadnelQQ4SWlh_VnZ2dnUVZ_oLinZ2d@posted.dakotacomip...
> How does that affect engine idle smoothness? Can you tell much of a
> difference?
>
> "darthpup" <amchitka RemoveThis @mailexcite.com> wrote in message
> news:ce4ee636-3fdc-4a35-9519-c74801b8886c@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>I have removed the balance shaft belts on both my 944s. They just rob
>> power and create other problems.
>
>


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

"William Noble" <nobody DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:4965c$4882ec13$5411@news.teranews.com...
> there is a significant difference in smoothness - that's why Porsche added
> them -
>
>

following up - I changed a timing belt and balance shaft belt yesterday - so
I did the test with/without and it is clearly obvious at idle that the
balance shaft belt is not installed. In fact, when a 944 was my daily
driver, I would wait for the balance shaft belt to break as my signal to
change both belts - never failed me.



** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

<I would wait for the balance shaft belt to break as my signal to change
both belts >

The reason your balance shaft belts broke - is because they weren't
tensioned properly. My 1st 944 with 550,000 miles - NEVER broke a belt.
My now 87 944 with 250,000 miles also never broke a belt. I change the
belts when the water pump fails or the roller bearings start squeaking.

Adjusting those belts based on their flapping or not - is absolutely
ridiculous.

jolie



"William Noble" <nobody.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ace5a$48841bfb$23959@news.teranews.com...
>
> "William Noble" <nobody.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:4965c$4882ec13$5411@news.teranews.com...
>> there is a significant difference in smoothness - that's why Porsche
>> added them -
>>
>>
>
> following up - I changed a timing belt and balance shaft belt yesterday -
> so I did the test with/without and it is clearly obvious at idle that the
> balance shaft belt is not installed. In fact, when a 944 was my daily
> driver, I would wait for the balance shaft belt to break as my signal to
> change both belts - never failed me.
>
>
>
> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

as you wish - I am not going to argue with you. I will point out that there
is a replacement interval for the belts. Perhaps you have replaced your
belts some time in the 550K miles? Well, I discovered that I could replace
belts on the scheduled interval, or just wait for the balance shaft belt to
fail - typically at about 50% more miles and use that as my signal. If you
have driven your 87 for 250,000 miles without ever chaninging a belt, please
post that information here.

I honestly don't care if you or anyone else believes me - your statement
about why the belts break is false, they break due to wear and age. I
posted a hint about belts for those who wish to consider it. You are free
to disregard it. Much of what you read on the internet is untrue or
nonsense. You and anyone else who reads anything on the internet is
responsible for decidign what is and is not reasonable and true. Between
the 944s I've kept running, I would say there is at least a million miles,
maybe more. I've done all my own work since 1985, if you do your own work,
perhaps you can post how you set belt tension on a pre 87 car. If you do
not do your own work, you are not qualified to discuss the issue.


"jolieoli" <aol.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
news:jJidnRKMJ-fDXhHVnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@earthlink.com...
> <I would wait for the balance shaft belt to break as my signal to change
> both belts >
>
> The reason your balance shaft belts broke - is because they weren't
> tensioned properly. My 1st 944 with 550,000 miles - NEVER broke a belt.
> My now 87 944 with 250,000 miles also never broke a belt. I change the
> belts when the water pump fails or the roller bearings start squeaking.
>
> Adjusting those belts based on their flapping or not - is absolutely
> ridiculous.
>
> jolie
>
>
>
> "William Noble" <nobody.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:ace5a$48841bfb$23959@news.teranews.com...
>>
>> "William Noble" <nobody.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:4965c$4882ec13$5411@news.teranews.com...
>>> there is a significant difference in smoothness - that's why Porsche
>>> added them -
>>>
>>>
>>
>> following up - I changed a timing belt and balance shaft belt yesterday -
>> so I did the test with/without and it is clearly obvious at idle that the
>> balance shaft belt is not installed. In fact, when a 944 was my daily
>> driver, I would wait for the balance shaft belt to break as my signal to
>> change both belts - never failed me.
>>
>>
>>
>> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
>
>


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

On Jul 27, 8:09 pm, "William Noble" <nob... RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
> as you wish - I am not going to argue with you. I will point out that there
> is a replacement interval for the belts. Perhaps you have replaced your
> belts some time in the 550K miles? Well, I discovered that I could replace
> belts on the scheduled interval, or just wait for the balance shaft belt to
> fail - typically at about 50% more miles and use that as my signal. If you
> have driven your 87 for 250,000 miles without ever chaninging a belt, please
> post that information here.
>
> I honestly don't care if you or anyone else believes me - your statement
> about why the belts break is false, they break due to wear and age. I
> posted a hint about belts for those who wish to consider it. You are free
> to disregard it. Much of what you read on the internet is untrue or
> nonsense. You and anyone else who reads anything on the internet is
> responsible for decidign what is and is not reasonable and true. Between
> the 944s I've kept running, I would say there is at least a million miles,
> maybe more. I've done all my own work since 1985, if you do your own work,
> perhaps you can post how you set belt tension on a pre 87 car. If you do
> not do your own work, you are not qualified to discuss the issue.
>
> "jolieoli" <a... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:jJidnRKMJ-fDXhHVnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
>
>
> > <I would wait for the balance shaft belt to break as my signal to change
> > both belts >
>
> > The reason your balance shaft belts broke - is because they weren't
> > tensioned properly. My 1st 944 with 550,000 miles - NEVER broke a belt.
> > My now 87 944 with 250,000 miles also never broke a belt. I change the
> > belts when the water pump fails or the roller bearings start squeaking.
>
> > Adjusting those belts based on their flapping or not - is absolutely
> > ridiculous.
>
> > jolie
>
> > "William Noble" <nob... RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >news:ace5a$48841bfb$23959@news.teranews.com...
>
> >> "William Noble" <nob... RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >>news:4965c$4882ec13$5411@news.teranews.com...
> >>> there is a significant difference in smoothness - that's why Porsche
> >>> added them -
>
> >> following up - I changed a timing belt and balance shaft belt yesterday -
> >> so I did the test with/without and it is clearly obvious at idle that the
> >> balance shaft belt is not installed. In fact, when a 944 was my daily
> >> driver, I would wait for the balance shaft belt to break as my signal to
> >> change both belts - never failed me.
>
> >> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
>
> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**

Dale Carnegie has written a very well received book: How to Win
Friends and Influence People.
Good reading when inside human society.

If you remove the balance shaft belt, start the engine and notice
vibration, then you have other problems with the engine.
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

>
> If you remove the balance shaft belt, start the engine and notice
> vibration, then you have other problems with the engine.


Odd that you should say that - I would expect that the Porsche litereature
would be correct - it explains that the purpose of the balance shaft is to
reduce vibration.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

Whenever I changed my 1983 belts, I always used the Porsche <expensive>
recommended gauge. I have a friend that owns the gauge and he most
generously lets me borrow it. On my 1987, even though I have the gauge
available, I found letting the self adjuster do it's thing and that worked
great.

In my 3/4 million miles of Porsche driving and maintenance, I NEVER had a
belt break. I dont really follow Porsche's scheduled maintenance mileage
recommendations. I just change the belts (and every other time - the
rollers) whenever the water pump fails. I guess if you go that long without
changing belts, they better be initially adjusted perfectly - aka the
Porsche belt tensioning gauge.


joliett
______________
______________


"William Noble" <nobody DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:2477$48915741$14641@news.teranews.com...
>
>>
>> If you remove the balance shaft belt, start the engine and notice
>> vibration, then you have other problems with the engine.
>
>
> Odd that you should say that - I would expect that the Porsche litereature
> would be correct - it explains that the purpose of the balance shaft is to
> reduce vibration.
>
> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

I recently changed the timing belt on an Audi TT - it's very much like the
porsche timing belt - Audi forgot to change KM to miles in the manual and
listed the interval as 120K miles (when it should be 120 K km) - so the belt
failed at 80 K miles - the belt did not break, the teeth separated from the
belt in one area, with the expected damage to valves.

on the 944, as I said, you can drive until the balance shaft belt breaks
(and yes, it does break) - and then change both - since the balance shaft
belt turns twice as fast as the cam belt, it will fail first, and the
increasd vibration is really obvious. Like you, I've never had a timing
belt break in something over a million miles - even with my procedure of
letting the balance shaft belt break as an "indicator" - I have had a roller
fail, with equivalent bad results, so I now change the rollers if there is
any suspicion. Oh, and I don't use the expensive tool, I've always set the
belts by hand.

"jolie" <aol.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Mq2dnQe9nL4OPgPVnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Whenever I changed my 1983 belts, I always used the Porsche <expensive>
> recommended gauge. I have a friend that owns the gauge and he most
> generously lets me borrow it. On my 1987, even though I have the gauge
> available, I found letting the self adjuster do it's thing and that worked
> great.
>
> In my 3/4 million miles of Porsche driving and maintenance, I NEVER had a
> belt break. I dont really follow Porsche's scheduled maintenance mileage
> recommendations. I just change the belts (and every other time - the
> rollers) whenever the water pump fails. I guess if you go that long
> without changing belts, they better be initially adjusted perfectly - aka
> the Porsche belt tensioning gauge.
>
>
> joliett
> ______________
> ______________
>
>
> "William Noble" <nobody.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:2477$48915741$14641@news.teranews.com...
>>
>>>
>>> If you remove the balance shaft belt, start the engine and notice
>>> vibration, then you have other problems with the engine.
>>
>>
>> Odd that you should say that - I would expect that the Porsche
>> litereature would be correct - it explains that the purpose of the
>> balance shaft is to reduce vibration.
>>
>> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
>
>


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt 

Oh a TT huh, nice girl's car- did the belt fail after you replaced it - or
was it installed by Audi?

My friend is one of the most respected and trusted Porsche mechanic and he
wouldn't adjust a belt without the Porsche belt adjuster. I also thought I
could hand adjust the belt - but it was never correct. That belt has to
have zero tension on it - and that's what prevents teeth from breaking off -
hence, I never had a broken belt.

Well I still have my old trusty 87 944, but I just bought a new 08 VELOCITY
YELLOW CORVETTE...what a great supercar so far. GM and the USA should be
proud.
But it remains to be seen if the car has the greatness of a Porsche.

My 30 years and 800,000 miles of driving and maintaining my two 944's myself
has been nothing short of spectacular.
--

joliett
______________
______________



"William Noble" <nobody RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ef195$48a13559$3838@news.teranews.com...
>I recently changed the timing belt on an Audi TT - it's very much like the
>porsche timing belt - Audi forgot to change KM to miles in the manual and
>listed the interval as 120K miles (when it should be 120 K km) - so the
>belt failed at 80 K miles - the belt did not break, the teeth separated
>from the belt in one area, with the expected damage to valves.
>
> on the 944, as I said, you can drive until the balance shaft belt breaks
> (and yes, it does break) - and then change both - since the balance shaft
> belt turns twice as fast as the cam belt, it will fail first, and the
> increasd vibration is really obvious. Like you, I've never had a timing
> belt break in something over a million miles - even with my procedure of
> letting the balance shaft belt break as an "indicator" - I have had a
> roller fail, with equivalent bad results, so I now change the rollers if
> there is any suspicion. Oh, and I don't use the expensive tool, I've
> always set the belts by hand.
>
> "jolie" <aol RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
> news:Mq2dnQe9nL4OPgPVnZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> Whenever I changed my 1983 belts, I always used the Porsche <expensive>
>> recommended gauge. I have a friend that owns the gauge and he most
>> generously lets me borrow it. On my 1987, even though I have the gauge
>> available, I found letting the self adjuster do it's thing and that
>> worked great.
>>
>> In my 3/4 million miles of Porsche driving and maintenance, I NEVER had a
>> belt break. I dont really follow Porsche's scheduled maintenance mileage
>> recommendations. I just change the belts (and every other time - the
>> rollers) whenever the water pump fails. I guess if you go that long
>> without changing belts, they better be initially adjusted perfectly - aka
>> the Porsche belt tensioning gauge.
>>
>>
>> joliett
>> ______________
>> ______________
>>
>>
>> "William Noble" <nobody RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:2477$48915741$14641@news.teranews.com...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you remove the balance shaft belt, start the engine and notice
>>>> vibration, then you have other problems with the engine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Odd that you should say that - I would expect that the Porsche
>>> litereature would be correct - it explains that the purpose of the
>>> balance shaft is to reduce vibration.
>>>
>>> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
>>
>>
>
>
> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
 >> Stay informed about: '86 951 - Time to do the Timing Belt