407 v 406

Ken wrote:
> Our 406SV is about ten years old and we are looking at 407s or Mercs
> for a replacement.
>
> There have not been many posts about 407s - which may mean that noone
> is buying them but, hopefully, means that they have been fairly
> problem-free (if Peugeot monitor this group they will be soldering the
> air bag leads under the seats on the assembly line).
>
> What can group members tell me about the 407? Is it better than the
> 406? How? And what about the diesel version - plenty of posts about
> the 406 HDI - no particular drama.
>
> There are probably many group members in a similar position to me -
> lets kick some info around about 406 replacements. I will be test-
> driving a 407 HDI and a Merc Kompressor on Monday. Stay tuned.

I don't have direct personal experience, but my boss has had both, and
had far fewer problems with the 406. All the problems he has had with
the 407 have been niggling electrical type problems which the dealers
can't diagnose. I do know that the 407 is a pretty nice thing to drive,
and that the 136Bhp Hdi lump is quite sweet, although not as economical
as one might expect. The boot opening on the estate is both quite
clever and rather stupid - the two-way opening is quite clever, but the
aperture you have when fully open through which to insert camping
gear/dogs/washing machines is really quite small. On balance he
preferred the 406.

I have no experience of the modern mercs, so can't help there
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

On Feb 2, 1:30 am, Albert T Cone <m... RemoveThis @pie.com> wrote:
> Ken wrote:
> > Our 406SV is about ten years old and we are looking at 407s or Mercs
> > for a replacement.
>
> > There have not been many posts about 407s - which may mean that noone
> > is buying them but, hopefully, means that they have been fairly
> > problem-free (if Peugeot monitor this group they will be soldering the
> > air bag leads under the seats on the assembly line).
>
> > What can group members tell me about the 407? Is it better than the
> > 406? How? And what about the diesel version - plenty of posts about
> > the 406 HDI - no particular drama.
>
> > There are probably many group members in a similar position to me -
> > lets kick some info around about 406 replacements. I will be test-
> > driving a 407 HDI and a Merc Kompressor on Monday. Stay tuned.
>
> I don't have direct personal experience, but my boss has had both, and
> had far fewer problems with the 406. All the problems he has had with
> the 407 have been niggling electrical type problems which the dealers
> can't diagnose. I do know that the 407 is a pretty nice thing to drive,
> and that the 136Bhp Hdi lump is quite sweet, although not as economical
> as one might expect. The boot opening on the estate is both quite
> clever and rather stupid - the two-way opening is quite clever, but the
> aperture you have when fully open through which to insert camping
> gear/dogs/washing machines is really quite small. On balance he
> preferred the 406.
>
> I have no experience of the modern mercs, so can't help there

Interesting. The problems with the 407 sound a bit like I experienced
with a new Ford - they finally replaced a thing called the 'body
control module' and it has been OK. Our 406 occasionally acts up -
immobiliser. But it has only happened about three times in 9 years
(that is three times too many!). This is one reason why all the
vehicles I am looking at on Monday are demos - 3k to 25k kms up.
Hopefully they have got any bugs out of them.
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

Ken wrote:
> Our 406SV is about ten years old and we are looking at 407s or Mercs
> for a replacement.
>
> There have not been many posts about 407s - which may mean that noone
> is buying them but, hopefully, means that they have been fairly
> problem-free (if Peugeot monitor this group they will be soldering the
> air bag leads under the seats on the assembly line).
>
> What can group members tell me about the 407? Is it better than the
> 406? How? And what about the diesel version - plenty of posts about
> the 406 HDI - no particular drama.
>
> There are probably many group members in a similar position to me -
> lets kick some info around about 406 replacements. I will be test-
> driving a 407 HDI and a Merc Kompressor on Monday. Stay tuned.

I've had a 407 SE 110 HDI for over 2 and a half
years and it's probably the best car I've ever
had. It's economical to run (I really can get
55mpg!), reliable and comfortable. Everyone who
has been in it has been impressed with the
quality and the drive. I haven't had any
problems, electrical or otherwise. Maybe I
bought a rogue "monday" car!

Bob
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

No you have just got a good 407, also i think its how people look after
there cars helps, service when they should be and not left to long,
like many people out there!!
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

"Ken" <kkerrison.TakeThisOut@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:4631fccf-8320-4017-a1ae-0792b04f52ac@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 2, 1:30 am, Albert T Cone <m....TakeThisOut@pie.com> wrote:
>> Ken wrote:
>> > Our 406SV is about ten years old and we are looking at 407s or Mercs
>> > for a replacement.
>>
>> > There have not been many posts about 407s - which may mean that noone
>> > is buying them but, hopefully, means that they have been fairly
>> > problem-free (if Peugeot monitor this group they will be soldering the
>> > air bag leads under the seats on the assembly line).
>>
>> > What can group members tell me about the 407? Is it better than the
>> > 406? How? And what about the diesel version - plenty of posts about
>> > the 406 HDI - no particular drama.
>>
>> > There are probably many group members in a similar position to me -
>> > lets kick some info around about 406 replacements. I will be test-
>> > driving a 407 HDI and a Merc Kompressor on Monday. Stay tuned.
>>
>> I don't have direct personal experience, but my boss has had both, and
>> had far fewer problems with the 406. All the problems he has had with
>> the 407 have been niggling electrical type problems which the dealers
>> can't diagnose. I do know that the 407 is a pretty nice thing to drive,
>> and that the 136Bhp Hdi lump is quite sweet, although not as economical
>> as one might expect. The boot opening on the estate is both quite
>> clever and rather stupid - the two-way opening is quite clever, but the
>> aperture you have when fully open through which to insert camping
>> gear/dogs/washing machines is really quite small. On balance he
>> preferred the 406.
>>
>> I have no experience of the modern mercs, so can't help there
>
> Interesting. The problems with the 407 sound a bit like I experienced
> with a new Ford - they finally replaced a thing called the 'body
> control module' and it has been OK. Our 406 occasionally acts up -
> immobiliser. But it has only happened about three times in 9 years
> (that is three times too many!). This is one reason why all the
> vehicles I am looking at on Monday are demos - 3k to 25k kms up.
> Hopefully they have got any bugs out of them.

I wrote about an electrical problem with my 407 around 7 Jan vs.
After driving for approx 16 miles the o/s rear window would wind down on its
own and the n/s rear window would do the reverse, this would last for a few
minutes then stop.
The Dealer had the car in for three weeks and in many consultations with
Peugeot eventually changed the BSI (Building or Body (?) Service Interface)
Unit which appaently all the electirc controls pass through, at Peugeot's
suggestion.. Since then all has been ok, so far.
One compliment to the Dealer, although a warranty job and he wouldn't have
been paid that much by Peugeot my car came back with a full valet service
and painted tyre walls.
I have also had to have a Xenon bulb changed (would have cos £100 plus
labour) and three attempts to get an oil leak repaired. on the auto gearbox.
Otherwise it is a lovely car to drive but doesn't have the build quality of
a German built vehicle.
Vehicle, 407 Executive 2.2 litre auto, petrol model.
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

> Peugeot eventually changed the BSI (Building or Body (?) Service
Interface)
> Unit which appaently all the electirc controls pass through, at Peugeot's
> suggestion.. Since then all has been ok, so far.
Let's clear it once for all : BSI stands for "Boîtier de servitude
intelligent", and I have no idea about how it has been translated.
That's the main node of the mux system, from where all the buses start and
where interactions between them (if needed) are done. Every element should
be able to work even if the BSI has burnt (limp mode, of course), but
changing this element cured some nightmare stories related here.

Regards,
--
G.T
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

"G.T" <g.t6.RemoveThis@worldonline.fr> wrote in message
news:47a5b2da$0$11581$426a74cc@news.free.fr...
>> Peugeot eventually changed the BSI (Building or Body (?) Service
> Interface)
>> Unit which appaently all the electirc controls pass through, at Peugeot's
>> suggestion.. Since then all has been ok, so far.
> Let's clear it once for all : BSI stands for "Boîtier de servitude
> intelligent", and I have no idea about how it has been translated.
> That's the main node of the mux system, from where all the buses start and
> where interactions between them (if needed) are done. Every element should
> be able to work even if the BSI has burnt (limp mode, of course), but
> changing this element cured some nightmare stories related here.
>
> Regards,
> --
> G.T
>Thanks for the explanation G,T

Personally it is the first time I have come across the name (Intelligent
service box I guess). It was the dealer who used the terms I wrote above.
The window could still be wound up, well maybe after a delay, so whatever
the problem it wasn't fatal
Also I don' understand why window switches need to be multiplexed, it seems
to add an unnecessary complication but then I am no electronics expert.
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

Hi,

> The window could still be wound up, well maybe after a delay, so whatever
> the problem it wasn't fatal
This time, for you it wasn't fatal. Sometimes it really was nightmares (esp.
on 307s).

> Also I don' understand why window switches need to be multiplexed, it
seems
> to add an unnecessary complication but then I am no electronics expert.
OK, I'll give my point here.
Multiplexing (muxing in electronics slang) was bought into automotive
industry to reach two goals : one was the amount of wiring needed for the
car (a 405-class had something like 6km - 4 miles), the other being the
invasion of electronis (most of them wanted by the customer himself,
commonly called "comfort features") and for a better interaction between the
car elements (engine ECU & peripherals for example) - think "pollution
reduction".
So here we are : comfort and cost reduction.

The muxing is (I should write "was" as we could consider it like oldie now,
first muxed cars at PSA's being the XM and the 605 - on a lighter
integration though) extactly like the relays-to-automates revolution in
industrial installations : replacing the horrible number of relays by only
one automate (Industrial Programmable Automates ?) and a couple of relays.
So we encountered the same nightmare stories due to some hardware and / or
software design issues, exactly the same way. Happily, most of issues were
only software-related at PSA (I except the first 307s and Picasso's where
the BSI itself was subject to some water getting inside).

Errr, I hope it remains easy to understand.

Regards,
--
G.T
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

Its in plain english,
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

"Ken" <kkerrison.DeleteThis@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:76b0e9c5-d765-4c41-8216-fb3b8b6d8e34@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Our 406SV is about ten years old and we are looking at 407s or Mercs
> for a replacement.
>
> There have not been many posts about 407s - which may mean that noone
> is buying them but, hopefully, means that they have been fairly
> problem-free (if Peugeot monitor this group they will be soldering the
> air bag leads under the seats on the assembly line).
>
> What can group members tell me about the 407? Is it better than the
> 406? How? And what about the diesel version - plenty of posts about
> the 406 HDI - no particular drama.
>
> There are probably many group members in a similar position to me -
> lets kick some info around about 406 replacements. I will be test-
> driving a 407 HDI and a Merc Kompressor on Monday. Stay tuned.

We are the original Peugeot Family due to a family friend who runs a
Peugeot Dealership.

I've had 2 x 405's 2 x 406's and a 407

My current cars are 2004 406 HDI 90 S estate (intended as a hack and for son
to learn to drive in) and a 2006 407 2.7hdi GT Coupe, my wife has a 2005
307cc.

I'll compare the 406 estate with my brother's 407 136 hdi sw

The 406 is better for load carrying (the word is get a 307sw if you want
load space) but the 407 has better 'toys' and ride. The engine is 16v as
well so is smoother with a 6 speed gearbox so more power, economy etc. I
think the rear seats are more roomy in a 406 as well and easier to get in to
due to roof line.

Comparison between 136 sw and coupe, ignoring toys, the engine is in a
different league in the coupe. Smooth, powerful and really easy to drive.
Interestingly with the rear seats you have the same load length in the coupe
as a sw, just not the height. I've taken old doors down the tip in it.

The really big difference between old peugeots and new ones is the wiring
etc. See recent threads about electrical gremlins, perhaps too clever?. I
would not consider buying a newish peugeot without a manufacturers warranty,
given if you have a problem before they will look at it they insist on a
diagnostic check @£80. e.g. tyre pressure warning failure on 407. To fit
new pressure sensor £180! £80 diagnostic, £55 parts, £20 computer
reprogram, then fitting £25.

Personaly I really like the 406 'cos it's not complicated. The coupe is
great fun but just going to the shops is not as easy but for the open road
can't be beaten. Which is why I have both.





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

"stu" <ff DeleteThis @ff.com> wrote in message
news:47a62cab$0$26076$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
> The really big difference between old peugeots and new ones is the wiring
> etc. See recent threads about electrical gremlins, perhaps too clever?. I
> would not consider buying a newish peugeot without a manufacturers
> warranty,
> given if you have a problem before they will look at it they insist on a
> diagnostic check @£80. e.g. tyre pressure warning failure on 407. To fit
> new pressure sensor £180! £80 diagnostic, £55 parts, £20 computer
> reprogram, then fitting £25.

Which begs the question as to whether we could have an international
response
to pool data on the Peugeot EMS, and thus produce a program running on our
PCs
that will read the EMS for us? There's no doubt that we've all got the
computer power
at our fingertips (We're chatting on Usenet, aren't we?!); we merely lack
some info
and an interface cable.

Impossible?

No - That is what the Omitec company of Devizes UK do.

They don't have confidential arrangements with most of the world's
car manufacturers, but tamper with cars at one of the second-hand
dealerships
in order to reverse engineer the diagnostic codes.

If one of the market leaders can do it, then we as an international forum
can
do it.

I've already invented the product code .... "Peugeot Sorted"
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

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 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406 

On Feb 4, 7:39 am, "G.T" <g... RemoveThis @worldonline.fr> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > The window could still be wound up, well maybe after a delay, so whatever
> > the problem it wasn't fatal
>
> This time, for you it wasn't fatal. Sometimes it really was nightmares (esp.
> on 307s).
>
> > Also I don' understand why window switches need to be multiplexed, it
> seems
> > to add an unnecessary complication but then I am no electronics expert.
>
> OK, I'll give my point here.
> Multiplexing (muxing in electronics slang) was bought into automotive
> industry to reach two goals : one was the amount of wiring needed for the
> car (a 405-class had something like 6km - 4 miles), the other being the
> invasion of electronis (most of them wanted by the customer himself,
> commonly called "comfort features") and for a better interaction between the
> car elements (engine ECU & peripherals for example) - think "pollution
> reduction".
> So here we are : comfort and cost reduction.
>
> The muxing is (I should write "was" as we could consider it like oldie now,
> first muxed cars at PSA's being the XM and the 605 - on a lighter
> integration though) extactly like the relays-to-automates revolution in
> industrial installations : replacing the horrible number of relays by only
> one automate (Industrial Programmable Automates ?) and a couple of relays.
> So we encountered the same nightmare stories due to some hardware and / or
> software design issues, exactly the same way. Happily, most of issues were
> only software-related at PSA (I except the first 307s and Picasso's where
> the BSI itself was subject to some water getting inside).
>
> Errr, I hope it remains easy to understand.
>
> Regards,
> --
> G.T

This 'fly by wire' multiplexing thing is taking over the world and we
have a long way to go. Cars have, for years, been using it. Homes use
it. Boeing 747s use it. In fact my impression is that it started in
aircraft.

The idea that you can send instructions to odd bits of hardware around
the vehicle/premises is great. But if the receiving hardware has a
glitch you get things like windows opening and closing for no apparent
reason etc.

Presumably the receiving hardware becomes more sophisticated over time
so that it can identify and correct or ignore nonsense instructions.

But it is frightening that, for instance, my first two peugeots - a
504 and a 505 were totally devoid of all this stuff and engine
management systems. I understood every detail of the vehicle's
operation. No more. Sad!!!

I must admit that the 406 I have owned for the last nine year and the
407 I test-drove today are singularly pleasant - user-friendly -
comfortable vehicles. And the 406 has only failed to operate about
three times in nine years (and came good without any expert
intervention). But, having, for most of my driving life, had a fairly
complete understanding of what my vehicles were doing (and the
ability, in most cases, to diagnose and fix any failures), the current
world where I am, instead, driving a sealed 'black box' is, when I
think about it, terrifying.
 >> Stay informed about: 407 v 406