2009 Audi A4 ?

Quattros are valuable only if your drive in difficult weather
conditions such as encountered in cities like Montreal or Grenoble but
in sunnier countries they just cost more fuel.

Quattro technology was developped for that famous Audi rally racing
car the Audi Quattro Coupe which was then needed to be sold in order
to have the right to participate in the World Cup Rallyes where they
dominated the scene for quite a while.

Apart from that, a good FWD on a car such as a simple Audi 80 is just
more then enough. I cannot even get my car of the road and I can
handle roundabouts at very high speeds even in wet conditions. These
cars achieved unparalled levels of road holding which cannot even be
matched by a sporty Celica or the like (race that I did in the Alps
recently where this guy with his Celica could not follow me in the
curves).

LHR

On Nov 29, 5:25 am, Dave LaCourse <dplacou....TakeThisOut@pirateaol.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:43:50 -0800, Bill T <wct....TakeThisOut@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >Going through Audi's "Build your own" website, I notice that only
> >quattros are available.  Is this true - that at present only the 4WD
> >version is available in the US?
>
> Why would you want anything *but* Quattro?
>
> Dave
> RS6
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

A Quattro would have passed you.
Come on, a Celica?
It doesn't rain where you live?

(race that I did in the Alps
recently where this guy with his Celica could not follow me in the
curves).
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:24:14 -0800 (PST), laurentien
<luc.rolland DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>Quattros are valuable only if your drive in difficult weather
>conditions such as encountered in cities like Montreal or Grenoble but
>in sunnier countries they just cost more fuel.
>
>Quattro technology was developped for that famous Audi rally racing
>car the Audi Quattro Coupe which was then needed to be sold in order
>to have the right to participate in the World Cup Rallyes where they
>dominated the scene for quite a while.
>
>Apart from that, a good FWD on a car such as a simple Audi 80 is just
>more then enough. I cannot even get my car of the road and I can
>handle roundabouts at very high speeds even in wet conditions. These
>cars achieved unparalled levels of road holding which cannot even be
>matched by a sporty Celica or the like (race that I did in the Alps
>recently where this guy with his Celica could not follow me in the
>curves).

I've been driving for 55 years. I've been driving Quattros for 23
years. I've driven rear wheel, front wheel, all wheel, and four wheel
drive cars. I taught high performance driving to cops for ten years
before I had to quit because of health problems. Nothing, *nothing*
compares to Quattro. If you've ever driven one in the rain (it does
rain where you are?), you would know the difference. When I say my
RS6 can go zero to sixty in about 4.5 seconds, that includes dry AND
wet pavement, and it is just a few ticks off in the snow. Stomp on a
front wheel drive or rear wheel drive when the pavement is wet and you
get lots of wheel spin. The same if there is snow on the ground.
While Quattro does tend to understeer, it is nothing compared to a
front wheel drive care.

My wife and I used to work the pro rally circuit in the States, namely
the Maine Winter Rally. Our job was to run each stage from
beginning to end and make sure nothing was wrong. We drove a 1990
Turbo-Quattro wagon. At times we drove several miles over logging
roads with a foot of snow on the ground. Most of the cars entered
were awd cars, with a few fwd and rwd. The awd cars *always* had
faster times whether it was in snow or dry. Quattro rules!

BTW, "sporty Celica" is an oxymoron.

If you are going to buy an Audi, Quattro is the ONLY way to go,
especially if it rains (or snows) where you live.

Dave
RS6
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

"Bill" <bargerw RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2UcYk.1572$dc4.1271@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>A Quattro would have passed you.
> Come on, a Celica?
> It doesn't rain where you live?
>
> (race that I did in the Alps
> recently where this guy with his Celica could not follow me in the
> curves).
>
>
>
>

Surely that would depend on which Celica. Some were front wheel drive,
others rear wheel drive ( which do not grip well in the wet) and some were 4
wheel drive (GT-4).
I suppose it also depends on the driver and the conditions.

Best regards

David
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:25:58 -0500, Dave LaCourse
<dplacourse.RemoveThis@pirateaol.com> wrote:

>Why would you want anything *but* Quattro?

- Because you might want to pay less and still drive a VERY solid nice
car
- Because you're ready to accept that the FWD is not as good as the
Quattro in less than perfect conditions but the car still handles WAY
better than most other cars.
- Because you wan't manual gear box and only two of the 7 quattro
models feature that here while 4 of the 10 FWD models do.

Fact is: Already the FWD Audi is a VERY good car and at least over
here is around 5000 Euros less than the quattro. That's a lot of
money.

Regards

Wolfgang
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

On 11/29/2008 13:34, Wolfgang Pawlinetz wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:25:58 -0500, Dave LaCourse
> <dplacourse RemoveThis @pirateaol.com> wrote:
>
>> Why would you want anything *but* Quattro?
>
> - Because you might want to pay less and still drive a VERY solid nice
> car
> - Because you're ready to accept that the FWD is not as good as the
> Quattro in less than perfect conditions but the car still handles WAY
> better than most other cars.
> - Because you wan't manual gear box and only two of the 7 quattro
> models feature that here while 4 of the 10 FWD models do.
>
> Fact is: Already the FWD Audi is a VERY good car and at least over
> here is around 5000 Euros less than the quattro. That's a lot of
> money.


I agree. I have an A3 now and I'm happy with the front-wheel drive. It
doesn't snow here, and rainfall is moderate.

Anyways, my googling seems to indicate that the 2009 FWD A4's will hit
the US market in December - January.

I still would like to see the DSG on the A4 though. The DSG on my
current 2006 A3 is the best transmission I have ever used.


Bill
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:34:21 +0100, Wolfgang Pawlinetz
<w.pawlinetz.TakeThisOut@a1.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:25:58 -0500, Dave LaCourse
><dplacourse.TakeThisOut@pirateaol.com> wrote:
>
>>Why would you want anything *but* Quattro?
>
>- Because you might want to pay less and still drive a VERY solid nice
>car

True, but for a few dollars more.....

>- Because you're ready to accept that the FWD is not as good as the
>Quattro in less than perfect conditions but the car still handles WAY
>better than most other cars.

It's not as good as the Q in just about any condition and it is still
a fwd.

>- Because you wan't manual gear box and only two of the 7 quattro
>models feature that here while 4 of the 10 FWD models do.

Buy the one with whichever gear box you desire. I drove the R8 at
Pocono Raceway and the auto was far better than the stick.
>
>Fact is: Already the FWD Audi is a VERY good car and at least over
>here is around 5000 Euros less than the quattro. That's a lot of
>money.

Like I said, for a few dollars more....... In for a penny - in for a
pound. Buy the Q and have everything you would ever need.


Dave
RS6
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 18:41:53 -0500, Dave LaCourse
<dplacourse.DeleteThis@pirateaol.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:34:21 +0100, Wolfgang Pawlinetz
><w.pawlinetz.DeleteThis@a1.net> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:25:58 -0500, Dave LaCourse
>><dplacourse.DeleteThis@pirateaol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Why would you want anything *but* Quattro?
>>
>>- Because you might want to pay less and still drive a VERY solid nice
>>car
>
>True, but for a few dollars more.....

Oh well, 6k$ is not a few for most people.

>>- Because you're ready to accept that the FWD is not as good as the
>>Quattro in less than perfect conditions but the car still handles WAY
>>better than most other cars.
>
>It's not as good as the Q in just about any condition and it is still
>a fwd.

Yep. No problem with that.

>>- Because you wan't manual gear box and only two of the 7 quattro
>>models feature that here while 4 of the 10 FWD models do.
>
>Buy the one with whichever gear box you desire. I drove the R8 at
>Pocono Raceway and the auto was far better than the stick.

We're not talking bout raceways all the time, are we? I've been to
racetracks regularly with my motorcycle and at least with that there's
a HUGE difference between road and track.

And: The Auto is ANOTHER 3-4k$ on top here. So we're talking 'bout a
price difference of 9 to 10 k$. And that's around 20% here.


>Like I said, for a few dollars more....... In for a penny - in for a
>pound. Buy the Q and have everything you would ever need.

Dave, I respect you're experience and opinion, but I will have to
refuse the implication that people not buying a Q for their own
reasons are cheapskates or making false decisions.

For the record: I don't doubt that the Q is better than the FWD, but
the F is by any means still an extremely good car.

Regards

W.
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:01:44 +0100, Wolfgang Pawlinetz
<w.pawlinetz.TakeThisOut@a1.net> wrote:

>Dave, I respect you're experience and opinion, but I will have to
>refuse the implication that people not buying a Q for their own
>reasons are cheapskates or making false decisions.
>
>For the record: I don't doubt that the Q is better than the FWD, but
>the F is by any means still an extremely good car.

Wolfgang, I don't think people are cheapskates for buying the fwd
Audis, but I do feel that the entire reason for buying an Audi is the
Quattro system. Audi didn't make their money on fwd cars. When they
came out with the Quattro here in the states (82, 84?) their sales
began to rise. There are scores of fwd cars out there, many of them
good, but there is only one Quattro along with numerous other awd
systems that are inferior. I would venture a guess that Quattro
accounts for 98% of sales in the U.S.

Audi dominated the rally scene in Europe and the States during in the
80s because of Quattro. Their entry into racing was also very
successful. I believe they dominated much of the Euro racing in those
days and each win caused them a weight penalty. The Sports Car Club
of America (SCCA) would not allow Quattros in any of their race
classes because of the distinct advantage over rwd and fwd. Audi and
their Quattro have dominated any number of race scenes, but especially
LeMans in recent years, and the Petite LeMans series here in the
States.

I have driven many fwd Audis at Audi sponsored driving events and they
do not compare to Quattro. They are good cars, no doubt about that,
but my choice for any car would be Quattro or rwd. If Audi was
suddenly to stop production of Quattro, my next choice would be the
Nisson GT-R or one of the MBs AMGs. It would not be an Audi fwd.
And, I agree with you that the Audi fwd is an extremely good car.

Be well,

Dave
RS6
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

"Dave LaCourse" <dplacourse.RemoveThis@pirateaol.com> wrote in message
news:4q05j4pg7l2btf45i3pbdrjablu20s33s3@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:01:44 +0100, Wolfgang Pawlinetz
> <w.pawlinetz.RemoveThis@a1.net> wrote:
>
>>Dave, I respect you're experience and opinion, but I will have to
>>refuse the implication that people not buying a Q for their own
>>reasons are cheapskates or making false decisions.
>>
>>For the record: I don't doubt that the Q is better than the FWD, but
>>the F is by any means still an extremely good car.
>
> Wolfgang, I don't think people are cheapskates for buying the fwd
> Audis, but I do feel that the entire reason for buying an Audi is the
> Quattro system. Audi didn't make their money on fwd cars. When they
> came out with the Quattro here in the states (82, 84?) their sales
> began to rise. There are scores of fwd cars out there, many of them
> good, but there is only one Quattro along with numerous other awd
> systems that are inferior. I would venture a guess that Quattro
> accounts for 98% of sales in the U.S.
>
> Audi dominated the rally scene in Europe and the States during in the
> 80s because of Quattro. Their entry into racing was also very
> successful. I believe they dominated much of the Euro racing in those
> days and each win caused them a weight penalty. The Sports Car Club
> of America (SCCA) would not allow Quattros in any of their race
> classes because of the distinct advantage over rwd and fwd. Audi and
> their Quattro have dominated any number of race scenes, but especially
> LeMans in recent years, and the Petite LeMans series here in the
> States.
>
> I have driven many fwd Audis at Audi sponsored driving events and they
> do not compare to Quattro. They are good cars, no doubt about that,
> but my choice for any car would be Quattro or rwd. If Audi was
> suddenly to stop production of Quattro, my next choice would be the
> Nisson GT-R or one of the MBs AMGs. It would not be an Audi fwd.
> And, I agree with you that the Audi fwd is an extremely good car.
>
> Be well,
>
> Dave
> RS6
>
>

There are at least two types of Quattro system.

The longitudinal engine in an A4 A5 A6 A8 S4 S6 (et cetera) has Torsen full
time 4wd, whereas the transverse engine in the A3 S3 TT (et cetera) has the
Haldex electronic controlled clutch system which is not full time 4wd, but
front wheel drive most of the time.

Best regards

David
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 07:36:36 -0500, Dave LaCourse
<dplacourse.RemoveThis@pirateaol.com> wrote:

>Wolfgang, I don't think people are cheapskates for buying the fwd
>Audis, but I do feel that the entire reason for buying an Audi is the
>Quattro system. Audi didn't make their money on fwd cars. When they
>came out with the Quattro here in the states (82, 84?) their sales
>began to rise. There are scores of fwd cars out there, many of them
>good, but there is only one Quattro along with numerous other awd
>systems that are inferior. I would venture a guess that Quattro
>accounts for 98% of sales in the U.S.

I begin to understand the different preception now.

I just checked Audis used car website in Austria and of all Audis
currently offered there (~3600 units) ~ 1200 are Quattros. All others
are obviously Fronts.

Audis had a fairly good reputation in europe already long before they
increased their sales in the US, so we have a different perception. In
the premium class over here basically only Mercedes, BMW and Audi
dominate. Lexus here has a very hard time to even be acknowledged as a
high class car (Lexus owners: no offense)

>[Racing and Competition]

I agree, but one could also see that as an excellent marketing plot
because, and let me play the devils advcate now, for the daily commute
on the motorway in california (BTDT) you don't need a Q.

I understand and agree that the reason for their big success in
competition conditions is the quattro. However, I assume you've made
the same experience, that is between racetrack and daily real world
driving complete universes exists.

>Be well,

You too, Dave

Regards

Wolfgang
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:55:19 +0100, Wolfgang Pawlinetz
<w.pawlinetz.TakeThisOut@a1.net> wrote:

>I just checked Audis used car website in Austria and of all Audis
>currently offered there (~3600 units) ~ 1200 are Quattros. All others
>are obviously Fronts.

I can believe that. It is just the opposite here in the States. Most
Audis are awd, except for some of the TTs. I only wish that we had
some of the speed limits that you have, and the lane discipline most
Euro drivers practice. My wife and I were in Switzerland about ten
years ago and had rented a Saab Turbo in Zurich. Had a blast driving
to Davos and then to Germany. If only Stateside drivers had that
discipline.
>
>Audis had a fairly good reputation in europe already long before they
>increased their sales in the US, so we have a different perception. In
>the premium class over here basically only Mercedes, BMW and Audi
>dominate. Lexus here has a very hard time to even be acknowledged as a
>high class car (Lexus owners: no offense)

d;o) My wife has a Lexus SUV. Nice enough, but when I sponsored the
family to a winter driving school last year (two daughters and their
husbands (2000 4.2 A6), three grandchildren (two 2000 S4s and a
Passat), no one wanted to drive her car. We took turns, of course,
with each of the cars, but no one wanted to drive the Lexus. It was
fun throwing the Audis around the different courses, but the Lexus was
so forgiving with its anti-skid control, that it was hard to get it
into trouble. You can turn it off on the RS6, and the others didn't
have one. I had the Lexus in for service several months ago and took
that opportunity to test drive the Lexus IS F sedan. Ballsey little
all-wheel drive with 416 bhp, but it wasn't an Audi. A Lexus is NOT a
MB, but it does well in the States.

Be well,

Dave
RS6
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ? 

> but I do feel that the entire reason for buying an Audi is the
> Quattro system

I would have loved a Quattro but as has been said, the price difference was
too much. It would have meant I'd have had to drop options (leather, HIDs)
that I wanted.

My main reasons for buying an Audi were superior quality over anything in
the same price segment, better residual value when I come to sell and IMO
better aesthetics.

Only around 25% of Audis sold in Europe are Quattro because pretty much all
Audis sold in Europe are built to order. I appreciate that that's hard to do
outside Europe which is why Audi USA probably takes in a far higher
percentage of Quattros as it's the USP for many people.

You've also got to remember that Audi only came up with Quattro in the early
80s but were pretty successful in Europe long before that so the "need" for
Quattro is not so strong here.

Dave
 >> Stay informed about: 2009 Audi A4 ?