2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru?

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 19:53:42 +0000, Paul Giverin <paul RemoveThis @giverin.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <igk6q3t37tfn7r190rc6jg8vfjl5vf4mcc RemoveThis @4ax.com>, David Millen
><notdmillen RemoveThis @newsfeeds.com> writes
>>I think I'm a fairly sensitive driver, so when my Focus came back from
>>the dealer with a new clutch and front discs (and a very large bill) I
>>was surprised; it's done less than 80k km/50k miles from new. It
>>had gone in because it was reluctant to start from cold, and the
>>brakes were noisy. The pads seem to be lasting about 18k km/11k
>>miles. So, two questions:
>>
>>Is that normal clutch, pad and disc life?
>>
>>I was billed a total of 6.2 hours for the work, and just under 1000
>>euros (700 quid) for the parts (clutch, flywheel, cylinder, discs,
>>pads, consumables, etc) plus VAT. Is that sensible, or did they see
>>me coming?
>
>The question is..... did you authorise the garage to do all this work?

Actually, that wasn't either of the two questions, but yes I did
because I have had very positive experience with this same dealership
over the time I've owned the car.
--
All the best
David Millen
Xativa, Valencia
www.fincacasablanca.com
please reply in group
if you have to email me, remove the obvious:
davidtheobvious RemoveThis @millen.com
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

In message <73v6q354nhlsn4o0csqm1hu26bvkhgpgc7.RemoveThis@4ax.com>, David Millen
<notdmillen.RemoveThis@newsfeeds.com> writes
>On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 19:53:42 +0000, Paul Giverin <paul.RemoveThis@giverin.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <igk6q3t37tfn7r190rc6jg8vfjl5vf4mcc.RemoveThis@4ax.com>, David Millen
>><notdmillen.RemoveThis@newsfeeds.com> writes
>>>I think I'm a fairly sensitive driver, so when my Focus came back from
>>>the dealer with a new clutch and front discs (and a very large bill) I
>>>was surprised; it's done less than 80k km/50k miles from new. It
>>>had gone in because it was reluctant to start from cold, and the
>>>brakes were noisy. The pads seem to be lasting about 18k km/11k
>>>miles. So, two questions:
>>>
>>>Is that normal clutch, pad and disc life?
>>>
>>>I was billed a total of 6.2 hours for the work, and just under 1000
>>>euros (700 quid) for the parts (clutch, flywheel, cylinder, discs,
>>>pads, consumables, etc) plus VAT. Is that sensible, or did they see
>>>me coming?
>>
>>The question is..... did you authorise the garage to do all this work?
>
>Actually, that wasn't either of the two questions, but yes I did
>because I have had very positive experience with this same dealership
>over the time I've owned the car.

Actually, you asked "did they see me coming", so my question was in
response to that.

The fact that you did ask that question seems to indicate that you are
not entirely happy with the dealership.

11k miles isn't a lot for pads. I'm going to replace mine in the next
couple of weeks but they will have done 35k. That's mainly motorway
miles where the brakes don't get used a lot. As for the clutch... I've
never had to replace a clutch. Where I have bought new cars, I've kept
them for 80k-100k miles and never had a clutch go. Some people go
through clutches quicker than that because of their driving style.

How did your cold starting problem end up with a clutch change?

--
Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website:- www.britjet.co.uk

My photos:- www.pbase.com/vendee
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

"David Millen" wrote...
>I think I'm a fairly sensitive driver, so when my Focus came back from
> the dealer with a new clutch and front discs (and a very large bill) I
> was surprised; it's done less than 80k km/50k miles from new. It
> had gone in because it was reluctant to start from cold, and the
> brakes were noisy. The pads seem to be lasting about 18k km/11k
> miles. So, two questions:
>
> Is that normal clutch, pad and disc life?
>
> I was billed a total of 6.2 hours for the work, and just under 1000
> euros (700 quid) for the parts (clutch, flywheel, cylinder, discs,
> pads, consumables, etc) plus VAT. Is that sensible, or did they see
> me coming?
> --
>


(UK retail prices)

Flywheel : 367.46 + vat
Clutch Kit : 77.39 + vat
Slave cylinder : 75.29 + vat
2x Brake Disc : 65.34 + vat
Brake Pads : 32.08 + vat

Total : 486.88 + vat

does the 700 quid include the labour?

if it does then i'd say you've got a good price (just under 35 per hour)

if it doesn't then the 'consumables' must have been top notch...



of course, you shouldn't have had any surprise at all when you got the bill
as you would always be given a reasonably accurate estimate before the work
was started....


as paul said, brake and clutch wear is dependent on type and style of
driving. i have a client who's doing well if he gets more than 25k miles
between chutch and flywheel changes... he's on his fifth now. gets through
tyres quickly too...



--
gandissy
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 00:20:10 -0000, "gandissy"
<gandissy~deletethis~@~deletethis~.com> wrote Re Re: 2003 TDCi clutch
and brakes - workshop pricing guru?:

>(UK retail prices)
>
>Flywheel : 367.46 + vat
>Clutch Kit : 77.39 + vat
>Slave cylinder : 75.29 + vat
>2x Brake Disc : 65.34 + vat
>Brake Pads : 32.08 + vat
>
>Total : 486.88 + vat
>
>does the 700 quid include the labour?

Just curious. How is the UK vat applied? Is it one percentage value
across the UK, or does it vary from area to area?

Is the vat applied to labour & services?
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

In message <gdo8q3dui2f1f8o6on139difetglv2c6n4 DeleteThis @4ax.com>, Caesar Romano
<Spam DeleteThis @uce.gov> wrote


>Just curious. How is the UK vat applied? Is it one percentage value
>across the UK, or does it vary from area to area?
>
>Is the vat applied to labour & services?


Value Added Tax (VAT) is 17.5 percent and added to goods, labour and
services and applied nationwide at the same rate.

Some things are VAT exempt such as some foods and, I believe, children's
clothing. Domestic fuel, gas[1] and electricity, are slightly different
and only have a 5 percent VAT rate - however many of the large domestic
fuel suppliers have increased their prices by around 15 to 20 percent in
the past few weeks.

[1]
In the UK we put petrol in our cars and not gas Petrol has addition
taxes over and above VAT hence the 1+ GBP (approx. $2 US) for a litre.
--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 21:46:05 +0000, Paul Giverin <paul DeleteThis @giverin.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <73v6q354nhlsn4o0csqm1hu26bvkhgpgc7 DeleteThis @4ax.com>, David Millen
><notdmillen DeleteThis @newsfeeds.com> writes
>>On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 19:53:42 +0000, Paul Giverin <paul DeleteThis @giverin.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <igk6q3t37tfn7r190rc6jg8vfjl5vf4mcc DeleteThis @4ax.com>, David Millen
>>><notdmillen DeleteThis @newsfeeds.com> writes
>>>>I think I'm a fairly sensitive driver, so when my Focus came back from
>>>>the dealer with a new clutch and front discs (and a very large bill) I
>>>>was surprised; it's done less than 80k km/50k miles from new. It
>>>>had gone in because it was reluctant to start from cold, and the
>>>>brakes were noisy. The pads seem to be lasting about 18k km/11k
>>>>miles. So, two questions:
>>>>
>>>>Is that normal clutch, pad and disc life?
>>>>
>>>>I was billed a total of 6.2 hours for the work, and just under 1000
>>>>euros (700 quid) for the parts (clutch, flywheel, cylinder, discs,
>>>>pads, consumables, etc) plus VAT. Is that sensible, or did they see
>>>>me coming?
>>>
>>>The question is..... did you authorise the garage to do all this work?
>>
>>Actually, that wasn't either of the two questions, but yes I did
>>because I have had very positive experience with this same dealership
>>over the time I've owned the car.
>
>Actually, you asked "did they see me coming", so my question was in
>response to that.

Fair enough.

>
>The fact that you did ask that question seems to indicate that you are
>not entirely happy with the dealership.

I was... I'm now becoming unhappy with the car and the dealership
both. That one bill is two and a half times the total workshop costs
for three years/40k miles on my last UK-owned car (which was a Merc
E320 petrol auto).

>
>11k miles isn't a lot for pads. I'm going to replace mine in the next
>couple of weeks but they will have done 35k. That's mainly motorway
>miles where the brakes don't get used a lot. As for the clutch... I've
>never had to replace a clutch. Where I have bought new cars, I've kept
>them for 80k-100k miles and never had a clutch go. Some people go
>through clutches quicker than that because of their driving style.

It's the first clutch I've bought in 40 years of driving apart from a
couple that got oil on them as a result of seal/gasket failure. Most
of the mileage nowadays is on country roads, but even so, the pads
seem short-lived compared to what I'm used to.

>
>How did your cold starting problem end up with a clutch change?

Beats me. I just get in, turn the key, and go. My wife actually
drove it back from the dealer yesterday; when I got in it this
morning, it starts fine albeit with a big cloud of blue smoke as
usual, the brakes are perfect, but - wait for it - the turbo appears
to have gone on holiday. It drives like a slug.

So it's back to the stealership on Monday morning.
--
All the best
David Millen
Xativa, Valencia
www.fincacasablanca.com
please reply in group
if you have to email me, remove the obvious:
davidtheobvious DeleteThis @millen.com
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 00:20:10 -0000, "gandissy"
<gandissy~deletethis~@~deletethis~.com> wrote:

>"David Millen" wrote...
>>I think I'm a fairly sensitive driver, so when my Focus came back from
>> the dealer with a new clutch and front discs (and a very large bill) I
>> was surprised; it's done less than 80k km/50k miles from new. It
>> had gone in because it was reluctant to start from cold, and the
>> brakes were noisy. The pads seem to be lasting about 18k km/11k
>> miles. So, two questions:
>>
>> Is that normal clutch, pad and disc life?
>>
>> I was billed a total of 6.2 hours for the work, and just under 1000
>> euros (700 quid) for the parts (clutch, flywheel, cylinder, discs,
>> pads, consumables, etc) plus VAT. Is that sensible, or did they see
>> me coming?
>> --
>>
>
>
>(UK retail prices)

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Spanish retail, on which I got 10% discount (converted to GBP)

>
>Flywheel : 367.46 + vat
352.15 + vat
>Clutch Kit : 77.39 + vat
133.67 + vat
>Slave cylinder : 75.29 + vat
97.05 + vat
>2x Brake Disc : 65.34 + vat
94.20 + vat
>Brake Pads : 32.08 + vat
42.66 + vat
Odds and sods : 42.00 + vat
>
>Total : 486.88 + vat
Total: 761.73 + vat (16% here) = 883.61

And people complain about rip-off Britain!

>
>does the 700 quid include the labour?

No. 6.2 hours at equivalent of 29.37 GBP per hour, + vat, on top.

>
>if it does then i'd say you've got a good price (just under 35 per hour)
>
>if it doesn't then the 'consumables' must have been top notch...
>
>of course, you shouldn't have had any surprise at all when you got the bill
>as you would always be given a reasonably accurate estimate before the work
>was started....

Perfectly sensible. My view, I'm afraid, is that I have to have a
car that's working correctly, and if I trust the supplier (which I
did) then there's not a lot of point in even asking what the bill's
going to be unless it seems possible that the car's beyond economic
repair.

>
>
>as paul said, brake and clutch wear is dependent on type and style of
>driving. i have a client who's doing well if he gets more than 25k miles
>between chutch and flywheel changes... he's on his fifth now. gets through
>tyres quickly too...

This is a 100cv TDCi driven by a retired businessman and his wife. As
in my reply to Paul Giverin, this is essentially the first clutch I've
had to replace - ever.
--
All the best
David Millen
Xativa, Valencia
www.fincacasablanca.com
please reply in group
if you have to email me, remove the obvious:
davidtheobvious DeleteThis @millen.com
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

"David Millen" <notdmillen RemoveThis @newsfeeds.com> wrote:

> I think I'm a fairly sensitive driver, so when my Focus came
> back from the dealer with a new clutch and front discs (and
> a very large bill) I was surprised; it's done less than 80k km
> /50k miles from new. It had gone in because it was reluctant
> to start from cold, and the brakes were noisy. The pads seem
> to be lasting about 18k km/11k miles. So, two questions:
>
> Is that normal clutch, pad and disc life?
>
> I was billed a total of 6.2 hours for the work, and just under
> 1000 euros (700 quid) for the parts (clutch, flywheel, cylinder,
> discs, pads, consumables, etc) plus VAT.

Here in the States, *Consumer Reports* lists the brakes as the
most problem prone area of the Focus, along with electrical
problems. Wear problems began when Ford replaced banned
asbestos brakes with a softer compound. I use high quality
non-Ford replacement pads.

The discs (rotors) shouldn't have to be part of a brake job, but again
the OEM Ford parts are too cheap and thin to be machined. New
rotors can double the cost of new brakes. My Ford dealer charges
$140 for brake pads and $120 for the rotors (£144 including labor
and tax). [one pound = $1.97]

My wife isn't easy on the Focus and I replaced the pads and rotors
at 36,000 miles.

I've replaced clutches (although not in the last 30 years) and I don't
recall the flywheel as being part of a new clutch. The flywheel was
a major part of your bill.

Don
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

Don McC wrote:

[...]

> I've replaced clutches (although not in the last 30 years) and I don't
> recall the flywheel as being part of a new clutch. The flywheel was
> a major part of your bill.
>
> Don

Google for "dual mass flywheel".

It's not uncommon for them to fail *before* the clutch...

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 09:28:53 GMT, Chris Whelan wrote:

> Google for "dual mass flywheel".
>
> It's not uncommon for them to fail *before* the clutch...

The mind boggles! Wouldn't a flywheel 'failure' result in rapid
disintegration of the engine?

--
Chris Game

"You must be an intellectual. No normal person would say a
thing like that." -- George Orwell
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:19:22 +0100, David Millen
<notdmillen RemoveThis @newsfeeds.com> wrote:

>I think I'm a fairly sensitive driver, so when my Focus came back from
>the dealer with a new clutch and front discs (and a very large bill) I
>was surprised; it's done less than 80k km/50k miles from new. It
>had gone in because it was reluctant to start from cold, and the
>brakes were noisy. The pads seem to be lasting about 18k km/11k
>miles. So, two questions:
>
>Is that normal clutch, pad and disc life?
>
>I was billed a total of 6.2 hours for the work, and just under 1000
>euros (700 quid) for the parts (clutch, flywheel, cylinder, discs,
>pads, consumables, etc) plus VAT. Is that sensible, or did they see
>me coming?

Finally got to the bottom of this. Thanks to all who've posted. The
principal culprit was the dual-mass flywheel, which apparently is
known to cause problems. This from www.honestjohn.co.uk :

"By 2008, dual mass flywheel failure on 2.0 litre models and diesels
had become common. 'Dual mass flywheel' failures create iron filings
which in turn accumulate on starter motor magnets, leading to starter
motor failure. Ford will sometimes contribute to the very high
replacement costs of dual mass flywheels and clutches (£1,200) if the
car has done less than 45,000 miles."

When I took the car back for the no-turbo issue, the stealership
discovered a split pipe of some sort which was allowing air to get in
where it shouldn't, stopping the turbo from spinning. They gave up
the idea of charging me for an hour's labour to fix it when I banged
the service receptionist's head gently on the wall.

It's back to large RWD petrol-engined automatics for me when thew
Focus goes.
--
All the best
David Millen
Xativa, Valencia
www.fincacasablanca.com
please reply in group
if you have to email me, remove the obvious:
davidtheobvious RemoveThis @millen.com
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru? 

"gandissy" <gandissy~deletethis~@~deletethis~.com> wrote in message
news:M-6dnUw7GLGvKj7anZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@pipex.net...
>
> (UK retail prices)
>
> Flywheel : 367.46 + vat
> Clutch Kit : 77.39 + vat
> Slave cylinder : 75.29 + vat
> 2x Brake Disc : 65.34 + vat
> Brake Pads : 32.08 + vat
>
> Total : 486.88 + vat
>
> does the 700 quid include the labour?
>

I make that £617.56, not £486.88, or am I missing something? That's not that
far off £700.

Morse
 >> Stay informed about: 2003 TDCi clutch and brakes - workshop pricing guru?